Paradox Interactive - New Images for Vampire Game

Originally Posted by Cacheperl
I see the right wing thought police is at it again, telling developers how they should write their games.

Ah, you mean those ppl who attacked and censored Warhorse, right? Oh, wait. They were not right wing. Very "strange"…

Originally Posted by Cacheperl
I see the right wing thought police is at it again, telling developers how they should write their games.

It seems that all it needs to trigger the thought police is a dev saying "politics".

And i can see that the leftist cucks are triggered when someone sees something for what it is - political propaganda. Awwwww.

"Thought police", nothing is more leftist than that in this day and age where censorship and oppression from the left is having a tremendous upswing (youtube, facebook, google, game companies like Ubisoft). It's not left wing people or "SJW's" who are getting their channels deleted or getting a visit by the Police because they spoke positively about Brexit or spoke against Islamization.

SJWism is not about "human rights" or about justice, it's 100% about oppression and using things like "human rights" or "anti-racism" as political tools in a way they were not meant to be used - to try to get to people that does not share their extremist views. You will never see these people promote freedom of speech, what they want is censorship and to ruin people's life if they don't share their political view.

Anyways. I think i'll leave it at that until there's a game, and no, i really don't think it'll be too extreme (i'm discussing the absolute extremes of SJWism), it'll take a while before we get to that in games, but hints of it we already have in both movies and games.

Originally Posted by Farflame
Ah, you mean those ppl who attacked and censored Warhorse, right? Oh, wait. They were not right wing. Very "strange"…

I objected to the attacks against warhorse too. This thread is not about them. I made no claim on exclusivity.

@vurt

Nice rant. You are injecting a political agenda of your own, taking the devs comments out of context and going into a spree of hyperbole and hate-mongering, ending up with topics that have no relation to the whole thing whatsoever.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Re "the political stance". I found this quote in previews: "While the demo of the early stages of the game I saw hinted at conflict and the politics of warring clans, Clooney says it’s central to Bloodlines 2 that the writers (who include Brian Mitsoda, narrative designer on the original game) are actively taking a political stance in this sequel, with its themes of art versus commerce and technological advances versus tradition."

Yes, and I wonder if that statement would have triggered all this nonsense, if other scraps hadn't been misrepresented by people stimulating their SJW detectors.

Originally Posted by Cacheperl
I objected to the attacks against warhorse too. This thread is not about them. I made no claim on exclusivity.

@vurt

Nice rant. You are injecting a political agenda of your own, taking the devs comments out of context and going into a spree of hyperbole and hate-mongering, ending up with topics that have no relation to the whole thing whatsoever.

Saying i don't want politics means i don't want politics in games. How did i take them out of context? Here's a quote for you ""It’s definitely taking political stances on what we think are right and wrong”

"Hate-mongering" when i call you a cuck, but not when you call me thought-police. Good one!

I'm done here.

Originally Posted by vurt
SJWism is not about "human rights" or about justice, it's 100% about oppression and using things like "human rights" or "anti-racism" as political tools in a way they were not meant to be used - to try to get to people that does not share their extremist views. You will never see these people promote freedom of speech, what they want is censorship and to ruin people's life if they don't share their political view.

Whoa. Finally I've found someone who knows "the ways they [human rights] were meant to be used". Where actually did you get that most holy of information? This secret surely isn't shared at universities or someone would have told me there some 20 years ago.

And I really can't see depicting mental illness in a game in a way that does the real thing more justice as an "extremist view". Don't you want art to be conscious of real problems? Especially pop culture? Do you think that "Litte Red Riding Hood" did anything good for wolves? Or "Psycho" for persons with multiple personalities? Or "Jaws" for sharks?

I don't judge the Brothers Grimm, Hitchcock or Spielberg - I admire them for their art in their age. But times always move on and Surely those guys would do that today (Spielberg actually said so), because they know more about the topic of their work.

Do yourself a favor: Watch "See No Evil, Hear No Evil" from 1989 again. I loved the movie at the time, but I can't stomach it anymore. They way it makes fun of handicaped people, who are an underprivileged minority leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you still find it funny or absolutly appropriate you should have a talk about the flick with someone who is actually hard of hearing or has an impaired eyesight. You might be shocked, though.

Originally Posted by vurt
Saying i don't want politics means i don't want politics in games. How did i take them out of context? Here's a quote for you ""It’s definitely taking political stances on what we think are right and wrong”.

Yep. That's a single sentence without its context. Exactly my point. The relevant context has been provided in other posts already, so I see no reason to repeat it to you. Moreover, you are cherry picking. You're making much broader claims than just "I don't want politics in games".

And clearly, you do not really object about politics in games. You just don't want politics that you do not agree with.

Originally Posted by vurt
"Hate-mongering" when i call you a cuck

The hate-mongering is fairly well applicable to most of your posts on this topic. I certainly did not direct it at your personal attack, which I barely find offensive.

Originally Posted by Ripper
Yes, and I wonder if that statement would have triggered all this nonsense, if other scraps hadn't been misrepresented by people stimulating their SJW detectors.

vg247 preview title (Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2: “It’s definitely taking political stances on what we think are right and wrong”) probably didn't help. I suspect many people didn't read the actual text where it talks about the tech progress vs tradition/art vs commerce political conflict (seems to be the mains one actually). Although, I'm sure cherry picking would have happened anyway.

I think vurt has a good point in terms of the SJW stuff in many movies and creeping into games. That said, let's wait and see what they put in this game. Vampires should give a wide latitude and "creativity canvas", and hopefully they won't make the game boring by putting in dumb choices like

A. "this is the politically correct one, and the one we will reward you in the game for -- thank you for being so woke!"

B. "this is the morally bad and evil one, you damn nazi, and we will punish you for daring to go against our political views!"

Now, that would suck. Hopefully the developers don't have such a simple minded black and white view, that unfortunately, many leftists these days have bought into.

From the left side the most common mis-representation I see regarding politics in games is 'x game has this political theme so you should be okay with game y'. Where game y has propaganda not merely political themes.

Its a false equivalence. No one objects to political themes. Arkadia7 has alluded to one such way propaganda is inserted into our games by restricting our choices. Another such restriction is of the female avatar or companions to only allow non-conventional beauty standards. For 'sensitivity' reasons if you believe that. Real reason is the idea of the male gaze which has encouraged game developers to be censorious in terms of the customization permitted to you. ie Mass Effect Andromeda

Originally Posted by Silver
From the left side the most common mis-representation I see regarding politics in games is 'x game has this political theme so you should be okay with game y'. Where game y has propaganda not merely political themes.

Its a false equivalence. No one objects to political themes.

Well, what I'm suggesting is that your distinction between "political themes" and "propaganda" is arbitrary, and is dictated by your political views.

BTW, could you list some of these RPGs that have been ruined by the "SJWs"?

Originally Posted by Ripper
Well, what I'm suggesting is that your distinction between "political themes" and "propaganda" is arbitrary, and is dictated by your political views.

BTW, could you list some of these RPGs that have been ruined by the "SJWs"?

You've asserted that my distinction is arbitrary but have given no reasons why so I'll dismiss that as mind reading. What political views in particular? I've already listed an RPG that was partially ruined by SJWs.

Originally Posted by Silver
You've asserted that my distinction is arbitrary but have given no reasons why so I'll dismiss that as mind reading. What political views in particular? I've already listed an RPG that was partially ruined by SJWs.

I don't need to read your mind. I say it's arbitrary because it must be - as it would be if I made a claim about a certain work being propaganda, rather than merely having political themes. If I claimed that the movie Zero Dark Thirty was propaganda for the US military, that would be arbitrary, in the sense that it would be based on personal subjective appraisal. It is not a matter of objective fact or measure. I think there are cases when there is a very strong case to be made that something is pure propaganda, but I'm not seeing much evidence here.

So, I'm saying that what you're trying to do is put things into different categories, as if it were an objective matter, and that saves you from having to defend the more difficult and unpopular rightwing case about your problems with these particular influences.

With regard to the actual examples of games, that's one example of a game "partially ruined by SJWs". Can you think of a few more?

Originally Posted by Ripper
I don't need to read your mind. I say it's arbitrary because it must be - as it would be if I made a claim about a certain work being propaganda, rather than merely having political themes. If I claimed that the movie Zero Dark Thirty was propaganda for the US military, that would be arbitrary, in the sense that it would be based on personal subjective appraisal. It is not a matter of objective fact or measure. I think there are cases when there is a very strong case to be made that something is pure propaganda, but I'm not seeing much evidence here.

So, I'm saying that what you're trying to do is put things into different categories, as if it were an objective matter, and that saves you from having to defend the more difficult and unpopular rightwing case about your problems with these particular influences.

With regard to the actual examples of games, that's one example of a game "partially ruined by SJWs". Can you think of a few more?

That unpopular right wing case of wanting customization and role playing choices in an RPG without weird censorship or restriction? I think your projecting here.

We are talking about games not films and I don't find the comparison very relevant. Films are a more clear cut medium, whereas in games things are usually more open because of gameplay etc. When gameplay choices are limited for bullshit reasons I'm thinking its okay to call it out if I find the motivations suspect. I don't want to get into the other games with SJW bullshit because otherwise I'll be here all day and I don't have the time for it.

And btw many of the developers behind Mass Effect Andromeda were not exactly hiding their views about things. Manveer Heir is but one example, there are others. So far from a personal subjective appraisal, when the results are clear to see. The 'you don't get this option because the developers don't approve' may not seem like propaganda to you but its a clear case of promotion of one political viewpoint and the exclusion of another.

Originally Posted by Silver
From the left side the most common mis-representation I see regarding politics in games is 'x game has this political theme so you should be okay with game y'. Where game y has propaganda not merely political themes.

And did you see this misrepresentation made in this thread? Or do you feel that the discussed vampire game is going to contain propaganda?

Originally Posted by Silver
That unpopular right wing case of wanting customization and role playing choices in an RPG without weird censorship or restriction? I think your projecting here.

The right wing case would be more credible if they actually worried about censorship in general, and not just when it is directed against them.

Originally Posted by Cacheperl
And did you see this misrepresentation made in this thread? Or do you feel that the discussed vampire game is going to contain propaganda?

I haven't read most of this thread so don't know.

I'm of the wait and see variety as far as the vampire game goes. I suspect it will be fine. Customization options will probably be very good and the writing team has good heads on their shoulders so no worries there for me.

Originally Posted by Cacheperl
The right wing case would be more credible if they actually worried about censorship in general, and not just when it is directed against them.

What do you feel should be called out in general? I agree with you in that I hate censorship.

The comparison with the film was just to serve the point that the definition of what is propaganda is very much down to point of view. The core of the point I’m trying to make is that I think it’s bogus to claim it’s not political to denounce something as propaganda. The position from many of the commentators on the right often seems to be, “I’m not the one being political – it’s just that I don’t want propaganda in my games.” But, I think it should be obvious to anyone that one man’s tale of rebellion, is another man’s terrorist propaganda; it inherently takes a political position.

When you say that, “When gameplay choices are limited for bullshit reasons I'm thinking its okay to call it out if I find the motivations suspect”, surely you can see how much your own political view defines “bullshit reasons” and “suspect motivations”?

Originally Posted by Ripper
*snip*

When you say that, “When gameplay choices are limited for bullshit reasons I'm thinking its okay to call it out if I find the motivations suspect”, surely you can see how much of you own political view defines “bullshit reasons” and “suspect motivations”?

The things I find bullshit 99% of other humans would find bullshit too. Treat people fairly and don't assume things, which some people can't seem to do anymore.

I remember the complaints about Kingdom Come: Deliverance, The Witcher 3 and Resident Evil 5. The censorious feel that restrictions are just to correct the implied bad behaviour that goes on according to them. The only problem is that the people you would least like to make the determination on whats bad are making it now more and more often. This is btw part of the reason why Valve went neutral in terms of storefront policy.

Take Resident Evil 5. Black zombies and SJWs lose their minds. I'm pretty sure we won't see a Resident Evil set in Africa for a long time if ever again. And for what? It shouldn't matter but outrage politics etc. Being judged by content of character has gone out the window. I'm pretty sure most people want to be judged by what they do and who they are rather than race,sex etc. Seems the censorious care more about bad optics and not appearing as oppressors rather than substance.

Well, you gave the main point of my argument the snarky *snip*, and seem to be addressing a different point entirely. I’ve not said anything about wanting censors, benevolent or otherwise, or judging people by their race, sex, etc. I’m simply saying that many, probably most, narrative works have some sort of political and moral underpinnings, whether overt or not. And choices on what to include and not include, and how to portray things, are always influenced by the various social forces and norms of the time. In other words, to make a political, critical case against the themes and messages one detects in a work is fair play, but to merely denounce it as propaganda when you don’t like it is bogus and evasive.

Originally Posted by Silver
The things I find bullshit 99% of other humans would find bullshit too. Treat people fairly and don't assume things, which some people can't seem to do anymore.

That’s a truly extraordinary statement, and I think probably gives us a clue about the muddling of opinion and objective claims.

Originally Posted by Ripper
In other words, to make a political, critical case against the themes and messages one detects in a work is fair play, but to merely denounce it as propaganda when you don’t like it is bogus and evasive.

Thats an extraordinarily disingenuous statement. I've told you why I don't like it and why I find it propaganda. Not to mention any number of RPG reasons.

Originally Posted by Ripper
That’s a truly extraordinary statement, and I think probably gives us a clue about the muddling of opinion and objective claims.

I find that a reaching statement. I've told you a personal metric I use to measure bullshit which accords with the basis of most laws. Don't make of it more than it is. The extreme left is considered the extreme left precisely because they don't value rationality over emotion.

Originally Posted by Ripper
The position from many of the commentators on the right often seems to be, “I’m not the one being political – it’s just that I don’t want propaganda in my games.” But, I think it should be obvious to anyone that one man’s tale of rebellion, is another man’s terrorist propaganda; it inherently takes a political position.

I gave this the snip because you seem to want me to comment on other posters motivations plus its kind of obvious isn't it. Yeah the Taliban are freedom fighters to some but that doesn't mean that most people won't find them objectionable for good reasons.