Temple of Elemental Evil party creation.

Has anyone played ToEE recently enough to remember the basic do's and don'ts of character creation? I haven't played it in over a decade, and my general knowledge of 3.5 Edition is a little rusty.

So far, my general outline is..

Two solid melee fighters. The first will probably be a pure Fighter, while the second will be either a Barbarian, Ranger, or Monk.

A pure Cleric.

1 pure caster, but I'm undecided between Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Rogue.

I'd really like to have a Druid as well, but it's a 5 character party. I'm wondering if I can go without a Rogue and just get by with less points in the Open Locks and Disable Device skills.

When I gave it a serious go I had a paladin, a ranger, a fighter, a cleric, a wiz and a rogue and got as far as level 2 of the temple with it often being quite challenging to keep them all alive - there was a swamp encounter with giant frogs that I got TPK'd over and over, not the moathouse somewhere else.

I did have Circle of Eight installed. I think the characters were 5th/6th level when I stopped playing. I think the XP is set so smaller party might level up faster - not 100% on that tho. Using missile weapons at the low levels were a must.

Honestly can't remember how necessary the rogue was. Considering the game is kind of old school then probably is.

I have no idea about spoilers in a 20 year old game but, yes, the frog battle is a killer and one of the toughest challenges in the game, mostly because you also trigger a bunch of lizardmen and possibly even a giant shark thing as well, and the frog itself is no picnic. It's one of the quests you get in Nulb, the second settlement you visit prior to getting to the actual temple.

I didn't finish the game (estimate halfway based on others) but started a multitude of parties and did the first couple towns before settling & I had the Circle of Eight installed.

Ranger
Fighter
Rogue
Wizard
Cleric

Felt like I couldn't have lived w/o the Rogue because of lockpick/trap loot, xp, and playstyle (hate leaving areas unexplored due to lack of lockpick).

Hindsight I could have probably traded the wizard for sorc without noticing a diff. I couldn't have done it without one pure magic user, I kinda wish I had two in most areas. Don't think I could have traded a druid for anything except maybe the ranger.

I considered :
Fighter
Druid
Wizard
Sorc
Rogue
But felt the lack of healing items I found in the farthest run was too low to be feasible. Maybe bad RNG? Maybe its because I horde inventory like a packrat.

I run with three melee at a minimum, and counting a rogue that usually makes it four. You seriously want one very solid cleric, and I go with a wizard over a sorcerer. And both casters gotta be able to melee too, no sissies in my parties!!

Originally Posted by KaosWarMonk
When I gave it a serious go I had a paladin, a ranger, a fighter, a cleric, a wiz and a rogue and got as far as level 2 of the temple with it often being quite challenging to keep them all alive - there was a swamp encounter with giant frogs that I got TPK'd over and over, not the moathouse somewhere else.

One of those must have been an NPC, because the max party size for PCs is 5.

Yeah, the giant frogs are tough for a low-level party. I took a party of pregenerated characters to the moathouse last night and got crushed by 3 of them. I hadn't done any of the quests in Hommlet though and had only the starting equipment.

Originally Posted by KaosWarMonk
I did have Circle of Eight installed. I think the characters were 5th/6th level when I stopped playing. I think the XP is set so smaller party might level up faster - not 100% on that tho. Using missile weapons at the low levels were a must..

I have CO8 installed and the Temple+ patch as well. You're correct about the XP. It's split among party members and that includes any NPCs travelling with you.

Originally Posted by Wisdom
Felt like I couldn't have lived w/o the Rogue because of lockpick/trap loot, xp, and playstyle (hate leaving areas unexplored due to lack of lockpick).

I'm the same way. I'm exploring the possibility of just giving my Fighter some levels as a Rogue, but I'm not sure about the penalties of multiclassing in 3.5e

What sucks about 3.5e is that the number of skillpoints you start with, as well as how many you gain each time you level up, is modified by the character's Int. That makes Int important for pretty much every character and especially Rogues. Thing is, Rogues also need high Dex and Charisma (if you want them to be your talker, and they seem to be the best class for that). So Rogues don't really have any dump stats if you want them to be decent in combat as well.

Download Co8 and you can have eight people in your party. There's an option to have more characters. If you make eight character you can't pick up any NPC's. So I usually make seven. I multi-class my rogue with a fighter to make them a nice archer also.

Have a fighter that specializes in a 2-handed weapon like glaive or long spear for the reach attacks when mobs get near. I like a ranger that is all archery. Great bows and archer items in the game.

I like Sorc over a wizard and don't forget about crafting items. Makes the game a lot easier. You could use the Knock spell if you want to get by without a rogue. Don't forget to have a nice blunt weapon for someone because the skeletons can be a pain.

I have played ToEE many times and you will have to do some battles over just because of bad rolls. Charm and sleep spells can save your ass.

You can have the Paladin be the talker if you want to go the good route.

Wouldn't a multiclass rogue / ranger be an alternative to the 2nd fighter?

Originally Posted by Redglyph
Wouldn't a multiclass rogue / ranger be an alternative to the 2nd fighter?

Yes, either can work. The fighter will get you extra feats and the Ranger has their own set of advantages at 2nd lvl.

Nod, a duel-classed fighter/rogue is a solid option. They'll level a bit slower yet bring a lot to the team right from the bat.

When I used to play 3.5 I would start all my characters out as fighters for the extra HP and weapon specialization. Can’t remember when I’d switch over I think level 4 then I’d level to 4 in the primary class and I’d have access to it’s abilities.

It’s been so long though that might not be in entirely accurate and I don’t remember If you level up enough in TOEE for that to work.

Originally Posted by Hastar
Download Co8 and you can have eight people in your party. There's an option to have more characters. If you make eight character you can't pick up any NPC's. So I usually make seven. I multi-class my rogue with a fighter to make them a nice archer also.

I forgot about that. I have the CO8 (standard version) installed, but I don't really like making those kind of changes to the game. I'm trying to keep it as close to original as possible while getting all the bugfixes.

Originally Posted by Hastar
Have a fighter that specializes in a 2-handed weapon like glaive or long spear for the reach attacks when mobs get near. I like a ranger that is all archery. Great bows and archer items in the game.

I plan on having at least one fighter with a 2-hander. A good 2-hander + Combat Reflexes + Greater Cleave should equal a nice can of whoopass.

Originally Posted by Hastar
I like Sorc over a wizard and don't forget about crafting items. Makes the game a lot easier.

That's only after you get the crafting feat, right? What's the Spellcraft skill for?

Originally Posted by Redglyph
Wouldn't a multiclass rogue / ranger be an alternative to the 2nd fighter?

Originally Posted by Hastar
Yes, either can work. The fighter will get you extra feats and the Ranger has their own set of advantages at 2nd lvl.

For Rangers, how does the Tracking feat work, and is there actually much use for it in ToEE? Ditto for Animal Companion.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Has anyone played ToEE recently enough to remember the basic do's and don'ts of character creation? I haven't played it in over a decade, and my general knowledge of 3.5 Edition is a little rusty.

So far, my general outline is..

Two solid melee fighters. The first will probably be a pure Fighter, while the second will be either a Barbarian, Ranger, or Monk.

A pure Cleric.

1 pure caster, but I'm undecided between Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Rogue.

I'd really like to have a Druid as well, but it's a 5 character party. I'm wondering if I can go without a Rogue and just get by with less points in the Open Locks and Disable Device skills.

For me it has been a while, but as far as I remember, one strong melee fighter should be enough. So you can still realize your other ideas. I always like to have spells for a few summons (e.g. skeletons, or animals), who can also work as melee units. Against groups of weaker enemies several of your characters can also go into melee if necessary (clerics, rogues).

Originally Posted by Imo.
When I used to play 3.5 I would start all my characters out as fighters for the extra HP and weapon specialization. Can't remember when I'd switch over I think level 4 then I'd level to 4 in the primary class and I'd have access to it's abilities.

It's been so long though that might not be in entirely accurate and I don't remember If you level up enough in TOEE for that to work.

I thought you have full access to any class abilities as soon as you add another class in 3.5. I could be wrong about that though. There's a -20% XP penalty for most races though if you multiclass and one of the classes is greater than 1 level difference from the other. That doesn't apply if one of the classes is the favored class of that race.

With CO8 installed, the level cap is 20. I'm only using the basic mod though and not the one that adds a bunch of extra content. That being the case, I'm not sure what level I can hit by the end of the game, but I doubt it will be higher than 13 or 14.

I don't think there is a lot of use for tracking in ToEE. Animal companion is nice to get an animal to fight for your team, a pet.

I think casters get the create a wondrous item at lvl 5. Yes, you need to use feats for the different items. I usually just get the ones for armors, weapons, and wondrous objects. I don't mess with the create wands and rods. Not big on scrolls or potions either but that is just my play style.

I may be getting the original game confused with the Co8 extra content and also Keep on the Borderlands. I have played all of them a few times each.

Originally Posted by Hastar
I don't think there is a lot of use for tracking in ToEE. Animal companion is nice to get an animal to fight for your team, a pet.

The choices are kind of wierd though because in addition to animals like wolf, polar bear, dog, etc, you can also choose a lizard or a chicken. I'm having a hard time imagining what good a chicken is going to do in the temple.

Originally Posted by Hastar
I think casters get the create a wondrous item at lvl 5. Yes, you need to use feats for the different items. I usually just get the ones for armors, weapons, and wondrous objects. I don't mess with the create wands and rods. Not big on scrolls or potions either but that is just my play style.

So after spending a feat to get it, you then have to spend additional feats for the categories you want? Seems like a steep investment.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I thought you have full access to any class abilities as soon as you add another class in 3.5. I could be wrong about that though. There's a -20% XP penalty for most races though if you multiclass and one of the classes is greater than 1 level difference from the other. That doesn't apply if one of the classes is the favored class of that race.

With CO8 installed, the level cap is 20. I'm only using the basic mod though and not the one that adds a bunch of extra content. That being the case, I'm not sure what level I can hit by the end of the game, but I doubt it will be higher than 13 or 14.

That’s multi-classing. Dual classing was different. You would actually change classes. For instance you could be fighter level 4 and rouge level 16 for 20 total level. One you switch to rouge though you’d only have your HP from being a fighter. Once you reached level for you’d have access to all your fighter abilities.

I used it a lot in nwn, especially after DLC allowed you to go to level 40 I believe.