The context and long-term relevance of scores as a means to refence quality

Originally Posted by Nereida
Parappaland tacos are the best tacos in the world. The sleazy guy and his three friends can confirm it.

So RPGwatch to you is a sleazy guy and his three friends?

Originally Posted by lackblogger
So RPGwatch to you is a sleazy guy and his three friends?

You would like that, no? So you can release the hounds on me. The villain I am.

When someone points at the stars, it pays off to look at the stars, and not at the finger that points them.

Originally Posted by Nereida
You would like that, no? So you can release the hounds on me. The villain I am.

When someone points at the stars, it pays off to look at the stars, and not at the finger that points them.

I think it shows just how ineptly you understand the concept of using math to help explain human phenomena. And it very accurately shows that using demeaning and patronising motifs is the only trick in your satchel.

Well, I think none of you are actually trying to understand one another.
Maybe best to stop then?

Originally Posted by lackblogger
I think it shows just how ineptly you understand the concept of using math to help explain human phenomena. And it very accurately shows that using demeaning and patronising motifs is the only trick in your satchel.

All that hostility, now.

Well, have at it. Nothing left for me here.

Originally Posted by lackblogger
This isn't a "what is an RPG" thread.

Then why did you feel you needed to tell us what isn't a real RPG in your first post? You claim you were factual and non-emotional, yet you post these all those opinions of yours and hope we all agree with them. DOS not being a proper RPG is one of them, RPGWatch member being "those who actually matter on the topic of objective game quality assessment". I didn't study game analysis in school, I have no degree from it. I assume the same is true for the majority of the members (I might be wrong, but I doubt it). We are not some higher authority than the general public just because we like the certain type of game. You "feel" a lot of things and seem to know the future.

You are also cherry-picking a lot (which many others pointed out). You whole argument revolves around one game that you think will be remembered more than others despite its lower review score.

How about this: I'll do a quick analysis on the poll you referenced. I'll put the percentage of votes on one axis and the metacritic score on the other and we'll see whether we can observe some trend. I'm not data scientist or a statistician but I think it'll give us a better idea.

Well that wasn't predictable or anything.

Originally Posted by Pladio
Well, I think none of you are actually trying to understand one another.
Maybe best to stop then?

I fully understand Nereida's position. I'm attempting to disprove it, that's the whole point of the thread.

As I have said, and I hope this doesn't come across as childish, but it is Nereida who does not wish to acknowledge any understanding of what I'm talking about.

That Nereida quite rightly laughs at the idea that population by itself is no indication of quality, but at the same time doesn't seem to be able to cope with the notion that score, by itself, is as equally an inaccurate guide to quality, due to contextual reasons.

Apparently, any exploration of context is 'excuses' and any examination of stats is 'not looking at the right data', and that me mentioning some games in a more positive light that Nereida believes they are worth is 'fanboying a game I prefer'.

You know, it would be nice if, just once, Nereida would snap out of it and understand what is actually trying to be communicated here, rather than just, you know, repeating that the only indicator of quality is score, which is, quite obviously, not the case.

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
Then why did you feel you needed to tell us what isn't a real RPG in your first post? You claim you were factual and non-emotional, yet you post these all those opinions of yours and hope we all agree with them. DOS not being a proper RPG is one of them,

This is refence to the evolving discussion about comparing LIKE-FOR-LIKE, which was a key point of Nereida's position.

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
member being "those who actually matter on the topic of objective game quality assessment". I didn't study game analysis in school, I have no degree from it. I assume the same is true for the majority of the members (I might be wrong, but I doubt it). We are not some higher authority than the general public just because we like the certain type of game.

If you don't feel being a participent at RPGwatch represents you avetively engaging in the future of your hobby then that's something for you to internalise. I'm sorry if you feel it's an opinion that site like RPGWatch are the kind of sites that enabled games like PoE and Div Os to even get off the ground and that, yes, we do indeed help shape the future here.

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
You "feel" a lot of things and seem to know the future.

And then back that up with data.

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
You are also cherry-picking a lot (which many others pointed out). You whole argument revolves around one game that you think will be remembered more than others despite its lower review score.

I believe the stats suggest that will be the case, yes. I really haven't cherry picked stats, it would be nice if you actually, you know, provided examples and said why you think they are cherry picked so that I could, you know, defend myself.

What stats do you prefer?

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
How about this: I'll do a quick analysis on the poll you referenced. I'll put the percentage of votes on one axis and the metacritic score on the other and we'll see whether we can observe some trend. I'm not data scientist or a statistician but I think it'll give us a better idea.

Now you're talking! I think that would be awesome, that's exactly the kind of stats that make for interesting observation. Now this is what we're talking about! You can easily find the whole article, you can do all of them if you want, not just those in the clipped pic.

Originally Posted by lackblogger
Snip

This summary is quite far from the truth. You are using cherry-picked, manipulated data to prove esoteric facts, fairy magic, and Dracula all in one.


You make arbitrary claims such as "PF will be more fondly remembered in future than DOS" but at the same time disregard that, in fact, people who are playing DOS, DAO and PoE today are considerably more satisfied than those who are playing PF.

Then in the same statement, you discredit polls, reviews and reputable testimonials from a sample size of thousands, to post a poll of a sample size of 50 here in the temple of Owlcat as valid evidence of anything at all.

Because you refuse to accept crushing evidence to stick to your chosen fallacy, you have become blinded by it, and the exasperation is causing you to become irritated, hostile and insulting, which contradicts the "neutral" semblance you want to sell.

It's not fooling anyone, as you desperately attempt to crawl back with that post, in which you try to sound more docile as you see the walls falling upon you.

The main factor on whether a game, a movie, a plate of food, a pharmacy, or a taxi driver are of better or worse quality compared to its peers is the collective opinions of everyone who consumed the service. A taxi in the center London will be used three million times more than a Taxi in the outskirts, but if in average the taxi in the center has worse score, then the Taxi in the outskirts is generally better, period. The fact that the Taxi in London took advantage of a better marketing strategy, PR, or timing, does not change the fact that something is better then a greater percent of customers decide it is better. There would be room for wriggling if it was a 2-3% difference, but none when it is a massive, soul-crushing 10-20 point difference.

I browsed through countless respectable games sites that have made lists of the 10-50 best games of the decade (Forbes, Rock Paper Shotgun, IGN, WhatCulture, GameRant, just to mention a few) and to no surprise of mine, PoE, DAO and DOS are commonly in the top 10, DOS2, all three of them always on top of Pathfinder, that barely is even remembered as an existing game.

If you can't get that into your head it's nobody's problem.

Follow your chosen fallacy, I'm done educating here.

Here is the whole spreadsheet.
I attached the charts. Again, I'm no statistician and this was done in less than an hour.

Originally Posted by Ivanwah
Here is the whole spreadsheet.
I attached the charts. Again, I'm no statistician and this was done in less than an hour.

That's impressive.

It also proves that I like games that are not that good, for my own reasons, while not being blind to the fact that they are not that good.

Example, I enjoyed Blackguards/Blackguards 2 quite a lot, and I recommend them often to my friends, but I understand they are kinda messy, buggy, niche games that just strike my fancy. They get poor scores near the bottom of the bunch, Blackguards 2 isn't even in the list, and I liked it better than 1. Maybe I would give them a better score, but I wouldn't claim them being better games than Wrath of the Righteous, even if to me, especially Blackguards 2 felt more immersive and ultimately, at least as fun to play through it.

Originally Posted by Nereida
That's impressive.

Thank you. Just a few things I forgot to mention: All titles are PC versions since all games are on PC, while not all of them have console versions. Metacritic has different scores for different ports so I just picked the common one. Another thing is that some games have more than one version (Skyrim Legendary vs Special edition). I used the one that was higher up on the search results (I sorted by relevancy, whatever that means on Metacritic)

Relevancy usually means the most "active", as in more reviewed/commented, if I am not mistaken.

That's an awesome set of stats there Ivan, and, yes, its amazing how quick and simple it is to put together relevant and interesting stats, quicker even than writing out a long textual post.

Now, what are your conclusions from your findings? From the stats you've generated did you see a direct pattern between score and the longevity of popularity and quality assessment over time? Or did you find that score provided a pretty random an not very relevant guide to what people will probably remember as good/great games?

Originally Posted by Nereida
Relevancy usually means the most "active", as in more reviewed/commented, if I am not mistaken.

Yes, I think you're right. Plus I think they take into account the recent reviews. I looked at Skyrim and the one on the top is the Switch version which I think is the latest one.

Originally Posted by Nereida
That's impressive.

It also proves that I like games that are not that good, for my own reasons, while not being blind to the fact that they are not that good.

Example, I enjoyed Blackguards/Blackguards 2 quite a lot, and I recommend them often to my friends, but I understand they are kinda messy, buggy, niche games that just strike my fancy. They get poor scores near the bottom of the bunch, Blackguards 2 isn't even in the list, and I liked it better than 1. Maybe I would give them a better score, but I wouldn't claim them being better games than Wrath of the Righteous, even if to me, especially Blackguards 2 felt more immersive and ultimately, at least as fun to play through it.

I really enjoyed Blackguards and thought it was a high quality game with barely any bugs and I also recommend it whenever the opportunity arises, such as replying to you now. I did not find it messy and the extent to which something is niche is surely irrelevant to quality? Unless you are now contradicting yourself? Niche means likely lower population, and not much else, no?

I was just defining the game without much of a deep meaning. Merely speaking of it as a game that I liked, but to the general consensus is not a great game, which I have no trouble accepting. Just as for me GTA5 is trash but I have absolutely no trouble admitting that it is a fantastic game based on the fact that it gets incredible reviews from about everyone who cares to play it.

The fact that I can not appreciate it is subjective, but the data is undeniable. Unless, you know, you are in denial.

Originally Posted by Nereida
In any case, I deem my argument concluded

Originally Posted by Nereida
Well, have at it. Nothing left for me here.

Originally Posted by Nereida
I'm done educating here.

I have no idea why I feel the need to quote these lines from three separate posts of yours, but I feel I must.

Perhaps I find them indicative of the quality of your argument and posting style generally. And therefore somehow relevant to the discussion.

Somebody is bound to get the last word by 2025.