Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Patch 1.0.7c

I see the TB lovers are out in force again on the site. I've played the game in RTWP, and never once felt the need to switch. Can't imagine how that pads the game length.

Anyway for you nerds the next game from Owlcat is rumored to be a TB Sci-Fi game.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark
I wonder how much smoother the game would have been without the annoying TB combat added. Shame so many games get ruined with TB combat. Luckily a few TB games are still decent enough to play in-spite of the crappy combat style.

I probably wouldn't have played it without TB. For sure that I wouldn't have finished it, just like I couldn't finish Kingmaker despite trying 3 or 4 times. Now I don't know how representative my case is in the total RPG player pool, but in my eyes not having TB mode would have made it a vastly worse game, bringing it down on par with Kingmaker.

I started in turn based mode and I've played the whole thing (120 hours and counting) in turn based mode. Once or twice I've turned on RTwP for very brief periods and overwhelmingly felt like immediately turning TB back on. I don't like the feeling of directing a swarm of swords, and I'm not putting fairly tough fights in the hands of a shaky AI. If a summoned Azata Bralani likes to throw lightning bolts straight through the center of my party, my own characters under AI are probably going to do that sort of crap too.

I'm just about to enter chapter 4 in the next few hours, so I hope they didn't break it. I would be very sad.

Originally Posted by Nereida
I probably wouldn't have played it without TB. For sure that I wouldn't have finished it, just like I couldn't finish Kingmaker despite trying 3 or 4 times. Now I don't know how representative my case is in the total RPG player pool, but in my eyes not having TB mode would have made it a vastly worse game, bringing it down on par with Kingmaker.

I am pretty sure I wouldn't have played it if it hadn't had RWTP, same for Kingmaker. Now I don't know how representative my case is in the total RPG player pool, but in my eyes only having TB mode would have made it a vastly worse game, bringing it down on par with DDOS2 and other TB only games.

There are plenty of TB games out there for those who like them and I think this area, along with the Codex, have a lot of people with the patience and free time to manage TB gaming, so I don't think it is very representative. I could just as ad-hoc point out so many gamers I know from discord, nexus, and flickr over the years who can't understand how I could ever play a TB game at all.

Having both options is generally the ideal goal to please more people but if the TB (or RTWP) is added more as an after-thought or isn't well implemented it may cause more harm than good.

I play TB games in-spite of not liking the combat, because the rest of the game is good, but a lot of that depends on how much combat there is and how time consuming. I have managed to get through BG3 EA three times in TB combat but then the game itself is awesome so I have to suck up the TB combat.

But can't imaging playing a 100+ hour game with tons of combat like the two pathfinder games in only TB combat. I don't have the time, energy, stamina, interest, or patience to manage such mind-numbing combat.

I used to hate turn-based combat in certain RPG's but lately I noticed something.

If it's not a fantasy setting I don't mind. So I enjoy games with combat like Wasteland 3 & Jagged Alliance. So maybe my tastes are changing in certain types of settings.

Baby steps I guess.

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
I used to hate turn-based combat in certain RPG's but lately I noticed something.

If it's not a fantasy setting I don't mind. So I enjoy games with combat like Wasteland 3 & Jagged Alliance. So maybe my tastes are changing in certain types of settings.

Baby steps I guess.

Getting there!

For me it's really about the intellectual challenge that comes with maximising every action you take to reach victory, and TB it's only valuable when the game is difficult (which is why I always use the highest difficulty setting). I understand that casual players just want to click through the game, and see the story.

To me if there is no intellectual challenge in the game's combat mechanics, I rather lay back in bed and watch a movie as I can't find value in having to sit in front of a computer just so I can click through a game manually. A superior option would be having my hands free to snack on some treats while cuddling comfortably under some warm blanket.

Different people, different tastes.

I prefer turn based but I don't hate RTWP, and I totally respect that some people prefer it, and it's good that some games cater to those people. But I do think that if your designing a real time game, it's better to use a system that was designed from the start to be used in real time, sort of like they did with Pillars of Eternity. I think it becomes problematic when you take a game that is designed to be played turn based, such as D&D or Pathfinder, and shoe horn it into a real time framework that it was never designed for.

Originally Posted by Nereida
Getting there!

For me it's really about the intellectual challenge that comes with maximising every action you take to reach victory, and TB it's only valuable when the game is difficult (which is why I always use the highest difficulty setting). I understand that casual players just want to click through the game, and see the story.

To me if there is no intellectual challenge in the game's combat mechanics, I rather lay back in bed and watch a movie as I can't find value in having to sit in front of a computer just so I can click through a game manually. A superior option would be having my hands free to snack on some treats while cuddling comfortably under some warm blanket.

Different people, different tastes.

Yep it's well known on this site I play for story not combat in all my RPGs.

I always pick the lowest difficulty also so if that makes me a causal player guilty as charged. It's probably why I despise Dark Soul clones with an unholy passion.

Still yeah different people, different tastes.

I always thought it would be problem if game, designed as RtWP, was given TB option and vice versa. Because in my mind RtWP and TB encounters design should be different. But in reality it doesnt seem to be a big problem. WotR with both options is great and I enjoy it despite flaws it has, including bugs.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark
There are plenty of TB games out there for those who like them and I think this area, along with the Codex, have a lot of people with the patience and free time to manage TB gaming, so I don't think it is very representative. I could just as ad-hoc point out so many gamers I know from discord, nexus, and flickr over the years who can't understand how I could ever play a TB game at all.
.

The problem you have here is that DnD is a TB game, and in trying to make it RTwP it loses its essence. It works for casual players, but it's not the system was designed to be. I'm fine with RTwP games for people who love them, but they make a mistake in demanding RTwP exclusivity for settings that are not envisioned to work in a RTwP environment such as any D20-based setting.

I find that TB is an excellent learning tool.

I like to play in this mode but it makes the combats a bit long if the game was not designed for it.

Originally Posted by Andrew23
I always thought it would be problem if game, designed as RtWP, was given TB option and vice versa. Because in my mind RtWP and TB encounters design should be different. But in reality it doesnt seem to be a big problem. WotR with both options is great and I enjoy it despite flaws it has, including bugs.

True wish more games would offer both modes of combat to please both sides. Though I realize that's unrealistic due to many different factors during game development.

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
Yep it's well known on this site I play for story not combat in all my RPGs.

I always pick the lowest difficulty also so if that makes me a causal player guilty as charged. It's probably why I despise Dark Soul clones with an unholy passion.

Still yeah different people, different tastes.

Casual player is not a bad thing, it's a valid choice because of the way you enjoy things. Probably a bad term when used by elite competitive shooter players, but in this context enjoying games casually is perfectly good.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I find that TB is an excellent learning tool.

I like to play in this mode but it makes the combats a bit long if the game was not designed for it.

I noticed that same problem with the PoE games. Obsidian shoehorned a combat mode that was not built for the game. I've also seen many comments about game unbalance.

Owlcat was lucky they had the TB mod for Kingmaker to build and improve on.

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
I noticed that same problem with the PoE games. Obsidian shoehorned a combat mode that was not built for the game. I've seen many comments about unbalance.


Owlcat was lucky they had the TB mod for Kingmaker to build and improve on.

I haven't try PoE in TB mode. I wouldn't like to, because the ruleset depends on time (duration). Because of that they had to round floating-point values to the time unit, in order to show the effect on each round. This quantization may mask the change in some attributes unless it's significant enough. In short, the ruleset is simply not made for TB.

I'm not sure how much Owlcat could reuse of the mod. If I understand correctly, Unity mods are mainly hacks into the game, that they cannot easily integrate into the original source code if they wanted to add the feature (because then it has to fit the game logic). So I suppose they had to rewrite most of it.

Whatever they did, they could never make it work properly and I'm starting to wonder whether it will ever work correctly, even with WotR. It's a nice learning tool, but to me it's limited to that (even if I used it a lot in Kingmaker).

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
I noticed that same problem with the PoE games. Obsidian shoehorned a combat mode that was not built for the game. I've also seen many comments about game unbalance.

Owlcat was lucky they had the TB mod for Kingmaker to build and improve on.

Hey I enjoyed TB mode in PoE. It changed combat, though it's not that it was bugged, just the fights where at times not designed for characters to go one after another and they could be cheesed in creative ways.

All in all I have 406 recorded hours on Steam, mainly because I played through the whole game twice in TB mode, which considerably extends the gametime, but goes to say that at least to me, it was a very good addition.

Hotfix 1.0.7f has been deployed. It contains the following fixes:

• Cantrips should no longer be missing from the spellbooks;
• Cantrips can now be correctly set to autocast again.

(Need at least 5 characters.)

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
I see the TB lovers are out in force again on the site.

Hehe, well… I wouldn't say I'm a TB lover and I was perfectly fine with Kingmaker, BG (which I both loved) and PoE (wich I liked) being RTwP.

I also felt fine playing WotR in RTwP and started to play withit. However when I switched to TB from time to time especially in the tough battles, it felt better each time. Just more fitting.
For example there are spells which have a very short spell duration, especially at the first levels (with duration depending on caster level).
So in RTwP I felt it doesn't even make sense to cast them as timing would be difficult doing multiple actions in parallel.
In turn based this works perfectly and you can really adapt tactics in a battle and try to win with using spell effects smartly.
Like in the battle with a water elemental in the Shield Maze I had Camellia casting Protective Luck every round for Seelah not get hit.
Also casting AoE spells is a lot more feasible in TB because you can just place them a lot better, and you also have better control over your characters not running in the affected area.

So for me this instantly was and is fun. However I think this fun does not come from the TB alone. TB alone doesn't mean a thing. Combat in D:OS 1&2 imho was far from great.
I've said it before, it's not about TB vs. RTwP combat, but about well designed combat and badly designed combat.
For TB to be well designed having a well designed ruleset that is made for TB is mandatory. And here D20 shines.

I do see elitism showing here as well in but coming to expect that somewhat condescending attitude in these decisions.

To me this is not a table top game (and I played AD&D for many years), its a computer game. Consequently it is merely subjective opinion that X type of combat is better or not. Better itself is a subjective thing as well. It is certainly not a fact that a computer game is better for adapting X combat style. Some may think it is more accurate (accurate also isn't better) or reflective, but whether it is better or not is a matter of pure opinion.

Hotfix 1.0.7g has been deployed. It contains the following fixes:

Seelah no longer shouts "I'm the boss bitch!" every time she attacks

Your party is no longer permanently enlarged and will now fit through doors

The floor is no longer invisible

You can once again use the k, u, i and 2 keys on your keyboard