Things missing in Medieval-Fantasy games (dirt, sewage, tanneries,…)

I just saw this video on youtube of a guy going to northern Nigeria. It made me realise the games we play are way too clean. There's none of those things in games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iW8…ndigoTraveller

For example, we see blacksmiths and we see clothing merchants, but we don't see the tanneries and the skins hanging everywhere. How do we get boots in a game like The Witcher or Gothic ?

Even the sewers in those games look like pristine modern sewers without modern pumps. Sewers should be dirty.

What do you all think ?

I don't think I'd enjoy playing in a dirty environment for long, unless there's a chance to improve it.

It would be fun to get more realism and variety in the jobs, for example have the players start at low rank and make their way until they can start a fighting career. But would that be a successful game? Don't most players want to have an inviting world with combat and not too much time taken on other considerations?

I think you'll need to diferentiate between medieval games and fantasy games with a slight medieval aesthetic.

Most fantasy RPGs abstract away no-plot locations, such as candlestick makers and bakers, unless the developer specifically wants those things to interact with a mechanic. Which is quite sensible. And the lack of general grubbiness is always answered by !Magic!

However, if a dev is highlighting medieval realism as a core component of their game, then, yes, there's not many that do actual realism, lol.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I don't think I'd enjoy playing in a dirty environment for long, unless there's a chance to improve it.

It would be fun to get more realism and variety in the jobs, for example have the players start at low rank and make their way until they can start a fighting career. But would that be a successful game? Don't most players want to have an inviting world with combat and not too much time taken on other considerations?

Originally Posted by lackblogger
I think you'll need to diferentiate between medieval games and fantasy games with a slight medieval aesthetic.

Most fantasy RPGs abstract away no-plot locations, such as candlestick makers and bakers, unless the developer specifically wants those things to interact with a mechanic. Which is quite sensible. And the lack of general grubbiness is always answered by !Magic!

However, if a dev is highlighting medieval realism as a core component of their game, then, yes, there's not many that do actual realism, lol.

I think those are good points. Maybe too much of it would be bad, but like you say it could be a way to have the hero improve things. E.g. all these corpses on the street are causing disease, maybe if you convince the Guild of Corpses to dispose of them you'll be able to reduce disease in the city and make it cleaner. Then obviously, they ask you to fight off a vampire who's killing them or something like that.

I prefer my fantasy settings to be charming/less realistic in that sense.

One of the areas in MHW is called Rotten Vale which is all brown with rotting corpses and underground area emits foul gas that drains your health - it is fascinating in a sense but I sure preferred hunting in all other areas

Kingdom Come: Deliverance was pretty muddy and gritty looking. I also liked that you had to wash up and clean your clothes in it. Could have even been grittier with sewage and animal hides.

Medieval Britain

Realism alone, one tanning shop, ONE, would have you gasping for breath if you were within several miles of it. Throw in two or four more for simple competition, and you'll truly know the meaning of the word stench. When I hung out with SCA folk several decades ago, they tried to do villages as history tells us, and some of that would play havoc with your senses.

How does that translate to a gaming world? Well, more is usually better, as additional options often improve a game environment, at least they do for me. I assume anyone gaming is likely an avid reader as well, so they likely expect to see the usual surroundings one would expect to see in a fantasy/medieval setting. Kingdom's Come got a lot right.

"Realism" is usually translated as "more blood, more gore, more rolling heads !"
Not like "where is the loo ?"

Originally Posted by Carnifex
the usual surroundings one would expect to see in a fantasy/medieval setting.

If you're including the word fantasy then realism is out the window, if you'll excuse the pun. They are literally, and I do mean literally, the opposite words for each other. Wanting more of one will always be to the detriment of the other and visa versa.

Almost all historical settings in games are hopelessly romanticized, including the violence. None of us would actually want to live in the middle ages or ancient times. Waste was thrown into the streets, everyone had flees and worms(in the digestive track), it was common to drink very weak alchohal, because most water wasn't clean enough to safely drink, hunger was commonplace, the diet was limited especially in winter, if you actually made it to 12 years old, which was about 50-50 then you had a decent chance to hit 65, but disease, lack of hygene, medicine, and hunger killed infants, the young, and old. Life had much less value to people than it did to us. Burning sacks of stray cats, for example, was considered good fesitval entertainment in the 14th century, as was bear baiting or dog fighting. Prisons were not used as a punishment, but to hold people who would be punished by public execution, maiming, or lifelong slavery. Torture was commonly used in criminal investigations. I really don't think most people want to see these things in games.

I think modern historians are somewhat questioning whether medieval life was quite as bad as we imagine, but it was certainly pretty grim.

I was sort of half joking with the Holy Grail example. I think the humour works because of the talent and efforts of Gilliam to create a look that seems really authentic and grungy - it's almost as if the Pythons have snuck into a serious director's historical film, and the contrast creates the absurdity. I wonder if in games they could go with some more authentic art direction to some degree, without getting too mired in the filth and the boils and so forth.

Setting aside the filth and disease and so forth, nobody would want to play a realistic character from that period. Our idea of what a knight is, for example, is a purely fictional construction for the purpose of entertainment, just like how archeologists don't live like Indiana Jones, and private investigators don't live like Sherlock Holmes.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. I think our conception of knights comes much more from poets working with mythic traditions, and so on.

Originally Posted by Ripper
I wonder if in games they could go with some more authentic art direction to some degree, without getting too mired in the filth and the boils and so forth.

I think that would make sense. I am not expecting dead bodies everywhere and stuff like that, but it just feels too clean.

Even going to an outdoor market in the UK/Belgium today is dirtier than some markets in games. I would expect fruit peels, veggies on the floor, some animals trying to eat some of the food. It just started feeling overly artificial.

Originally Posted by Pladio
Even going to an outdoor market in the UK/Belgium today is dirtier than some markets in games. I would expect fruit peels, veggies on the floor, some animals trying to eat some of the food.

True, but some of my favourite snacks in London are to be had in places like that.

I can't even visit a country that doesn't wear deodorant, I couldn't imagine living in other forms of stench

Baldur's gate ii had a tannery. Remember that quest about the murders and you could get some armour made out of human skin.

Originally Posted by Hastar
Kingdom Come: Deliverance was pretty muddy and gritty looking.

It had at least one tannery, too, on the very outskirts of town. They also made note of how bad it smelled.


I'm also on the side of keeping the open sewers out of my fantasy lands. However, I would really love it if they made some mention of the fact! Maybe the special wizards' guild that specializes in olfactory illusions and the magical food preservatives will threaten to go on strike. Or even some off-handed comment about how the magic kingdom should be using all those spheres if annihilation in warfare instead of just using them for sewage/waste disposal. No need to mess up your world - just a little nod to the realities that you're otherwise ignoring.

I remember the sewers in The Witcher and TW3 looking pretty much like I'd expect a sewer to look minus actual turds in the water. I think the devs have better things to do than render turds.