Elex 2

For me, Gothic was the only game at the time that felt alive. It felt as real as could be.

People would wake up, go to work, smoke, scream at you for entering their house. Those things were amazing and some games still don't do that today.

Recently played Greedfall and I could randomly enter any house and go into any room unless for some reason the quest didn't allow it or it was in some specific faction area.

Gothic was ahead of its time in that regard.

On top of that, Gothic exploration is also still almost unparalleled, vertical exploration doesn't exist in most games unless they're platformers. You could jump and climb into almost impossible places and find rare items.
The Witcher 3 for all its choices and consequences has none of that.

Gothic made it fun to go out of your way to explore and find something useful or interesting.

The final item for me that made Gothic more special was the item progression. Moving up in ranks meant real change in strength. Having a workers armour or a shadow armour made a massive difference in survival and combat.

The weapons were also very important to becoming stronger. Its not like in some games where you do 55463356 damage and the next weapon does 55463792 damage. The damage progression felt impressive. It took 5 hits to kill an enemy and then just 3 and then 2 and then 1.

I feel those items were what made Gothic unique above all other games of the time and even some games today.

The story was alright, the characters were fine for the time, but nothing special for today.

And Gothic 2 improved all that

Originally Posted by Pladio
For me, Gothic was the only game at the time that felt alive. It felt as real as could be.

I agree. It was the first game that made me believe a digital world could be possible. The atmosphere was simply second to none at the time, and it's still one of the biggest "wow!" moments in gaming for me.

Originally Posted by Pladio
The final item for me that made Gothic more special was the item progression. Moving up in ranks meant real change in strength. Having a workers armour or a shadow armour made a massive difference in survival and combat.

The weapons were also very important to becoming stronger. Its not like in some games where you do 55463356 damage and the next weapon does 55463792 damage. The damage progression felt impressive. It took 5 hits to kill an enemy and then just 3 and then 2 and then 1.

Those are two elements found in every PB games but imo, they are negatives.

First, it feels *very* artificial to be suddenly able to take on much more powerful foes just because you reached level X and are able to use Y weapons. PB games go at great length to feel realistic then you have level-limited equipment that partially ruins it. Personally, I find the gradual incrementation of the equipment more natural and satisfying.

Second, it put a great limitation on how you can actually configure your equipment. No matter what you do, you know you are never going to find *that* magic weapon or piece of armor after defeating some boss. In games such as BG or Pathfinders, finding treasures is a big deal. Not so much in PB games.

Originally Posted by vanedor
Those are two elements found in every PB games but imo, they are negatives.



First, it feels *very* artificial to be suddenly able to take on much more powerful foes just because you reached level X and are able to use Y weapons. PB games go at great length to feel realistic then you have level-limited equipment that partially ruins it. Personally, I find the gradual incrementation of the equipment more natural and satisfying.



Second, it put a great limitation on how you can actually configure your equipment. No matter what you do, you know you are never going to find *that* magic weapon or piece of armor after defeating some boss. In games such as BG or Pathfinders, finding treasures is a big deal. Not so much in PB games.

I don't know about BG but pathfinder was the complete opposite. Finding a weapon meant almost nothing as 3 quarters of the time it didn't fit my build and even when it did it added +1 enhancement or then +2. Yay I found a +3 Saï. I don't use them. Whoop.

Item progression meant nothing compared to level progression in pathfinder. New abilities provided so much more than any items ever could.

I barely looked at new weapons after a while because I knew that it wouldn't ultimately affect most combats. I just left them in my inventory until I found a difficult fight and then needed to start taking some more advantageous ways of winning.

Originally Posted by Pladio
I don't know about BG but pathfinder was the complete opposite. Finding a weapon meant almost nothing as 3 quarters of the time it didn't fit my build and even when it did it added +1 enhancement or then +2. Yay I found a +3 Saï. I don't use them. Whoop.

Item progression meant nothing compared to level progression in pathfinder. New abilities provided so much more than any items ever could.

I barely looked at new weapons after a while because I knew that it wouldn't ultimately affect most combats. I just left them in my inventory until I found a difficult fight and then needed to start taking some more advantageous ways of winning.

I have to admit: After a while, I started looking at item guides over at Neoseeker or something when deciding what weapons to specialize in.

Originally Posted by vanedor
Second, it put a great limitation on how you can actually configure your equipment. No matter what you do, you know you are never going to find *that* magic weapon or piece of armor after defeating some boss. In games such as BG or Pathfinders, finding treasures is a big deal. Not so much in PB games.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

Most modern games have an excess of loot, and you're always picking up new weapons and upgrades. It's like a constant dopamine drip that caters to people with short attention spans.

PB games make finding a better weapon or armor a lot more satisfying because you aren't getting upgraded every 20 minutes like in so many modern RPGs, and when you do get something better it's actually significant.

Originally Posted by JDR13
That couldn't be further from the truth.

Most modern games have an excess of loot, and you're always picking up new weapons and upgrades. It's like a constant dopamine drip that caters to people with short attention spans.

PB games make finding a better weapon or armor a lot more satisfying because you aren't getting upgraded every 20 minutes like in so many modern RPGs, and when you do get something better it's actually significant.

There's a difference between having an excess of loot, and something like Elex where you have basically no option, with cities full of "clones" who dress exactly the same. It feels so artificial, silly.

Originally Posted by vanedor
There's a difference between having an excess of loot, and something like Elex where you have basically no option, with cities full of "clones" who dress exactly the same. It feels so artificial, silly.

What does one have to do with the other?

One was about progression and now you're talking about how people look.

I never suggested Gothic looked nice with their block hands.

Originally Posted by Pladio
What does one have to do with the other?

One was about progression and now you're talking about how people look.

I never suggested Gothic looked nice with their block hands.

I was more talking about the overall concept of "faction uniform" than of a specific game.

Honestly, I find that equipment in PB games is boring, silly and unsatisfying.

Don't get me wrong, I love PB games in general. I really enjoyed most of them. It's just that I would never say that its equipment system is a "strength".

Originally Posted by Moriendor
Maybe a middle ground would be more ideal and past PB games did a much better job than ELEX because those games had a more granular progression with more iterative steps.
ELEX was poorly balanced, and with its stat driven equipment system as well as a pretty limited high level weapon arsenal, it definitely suffered from the issue that you just needed to reach a certain level in an attribute to become God-like with your BFG.

Am I remembering wrong or don't most or all of PB's games have stat requirements for weapons?

The only difference with Elex, and it was one that I didn't like, was that your stats don't also affect the damage output like they do with PB's previous games. I wouldn't say those games had a more granular progression though.

That was apparently changed for Elex II. PB saw the complaints and went back to the original system.

Originally Posted by vanedor
I was more talking about the overall concept of "faction uniform" than of a specific game.

Honestly, I find that equipment in PB games is boring, silly and unsatisfying.

Don't get me wrong, I love PB games in general. I really enjoyed most of them. It's just that I would never say that its equipment system is a "strength".

I think you're in the minority of fans if that's how you feel. Good weapons and armor being somewhat rare and hard to find compared to other games is part of the appeal. If you feel like you need constant loot upgrades, there are plenty of Diablo clones, etc, that you can play.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
The more granular progression was produced exactly *BY* the fact that the stats also influenced weapon damage in previous games. There was a fairly constant rate of improvement every few stat points because the attribute also affected the damage output.

Every single point you put into a stat did not only work towards being able to wield a better weapon but you also had the *immediate* benefit of higher damage output with your current weapon -> A more granular progression.

I was talking about loot progression. The conversation had been about the frequency of getting new weapons and armors. I meant that there was nothing more granular about how loot was distributed in those earlier games.

If you want to talk about character progression, then yeah, obviously that was more granular with the older system. It was a common complaint about Elex, and like I said, the devs listened to the fanbase and changed it back for Elex II.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
In ELEX it felt like many normal weapons simply sucked but if you finally hit that sweet attribute level to wield one of the legendary BFG weapons (which were easy to get just by progressing the story with minimal exploration) then *BOOM* you became a killing machine from one moment to the next.

I mostly agree, but it wasn't just the unique weapons that were overpowered. Some of the normal weapons were too. It really depended on what type of weapons you were using. For example, heavy projectile weapons in general were overpowered. I briefly tried using a flamethrower and then got rid of it almost immediately because I could see how OP it was.

That was at release though. I read something about one of the patches later nerfing the heavy weapons a bit, but I don't remember to what degree.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
I played through ELEX on 'ultra' difficulty and it was pretty extreme. I had to avoid any and all fights for the first 20 hours (no exaggeration, I checked the Steam play time) because I couldn't even hurt a rat which felt like screwed up Oblivion scaling, just backwards, all over again.

After those 20 hours I finally reached stat levels where I could unlock a few important perks (like the one that makes companions much stronger) and I was finally able to wield better weapons to at least put a dent in a flarking rat.
Another 10 - 15 hours later I became an unstoppable force even on 'ultra' difficulty because you make HUGE jumps up the ladder once you finally unlock the BFGs by reaching the required attribute levels.

You became an unstoppable force after the 70% mark in nearly all PB games, maybe even already at 50% in Risen 2 and 3, but it was always a much smoother process because of the influence of the attributes on damage output.
And I think also because the weapon requirements were much more similar with only about 5 attribute points between the next weapon of the same type while ELEX had bigger gaps in my impression. Those gaps were not filled by an attribute bonus to damage and thus the progression wasn't as smooth as in previous PB games.

Well, of course Ultra difficulty is going to be extreme like that. What were you expecting? And why would you choose to play that on your first run anyways?

As for reaching a point where you become unstoppable, I find that to be the case in most action-RPGs. To me, Bethesda's games are even worse in that aspect unless I use mods to increase the challenge in certain ways.

Originally Posted by Pladio
For me, Gothic was the only game at the time that felt alive. It felt as real as could be.

People would wake up, go to work, smoke, scream at you for entering their house. Those things were amazing and some games still don't do that today.

Recently played Greedfall and I could randomly enter any house and go into any room unless for some reason the quest didn't allow it or it was in some specific faction area.

Gothic was ahead of its time in that regard.

On top of that, Gothic exploration is also still almost unparalleled, vertical exploration doesn't exist in most games unless they're platformers. You could jump and climb into almost impossible places and find rare items.
The Witcher 3 for all its choices and consequences has none of that.

Gothic made it fun to go out of your way to explore and find something useful or interesting.

The final item for me that made Gothic more special was the item progression. Moving up in ranks meant real change in strength. Having a workers armour or a shadow armour made a massive difference in survival and combat.

The weapons were also very important to becoming stronger. Its not like in some games where you do 55463356 damage and the next weapon does 55463792 damage. The damage progression felt impressive. It took 5 hits to kill an enemy and then just 3 and then 2 and then 1.

I feel those items were what made Gothic unique above all other games of the time and even some games today.

The story was alright, the characters were fine for the time, but nothing special for today.

Couldn't have said it better. The atmosphere in both G1 and G2 is still unrivaled to this day, imo.

Originally Posted by bjon045
The big negatives for me was the whole elex crafting thing (i.e. purely a cash sink), the heavy respawning of monsters (and some inventory stocks) and not enough interesting locations to explore - although there were certainly some good ones.

I've yet to play Elex (though it's on my shortlist of games to start), but heavy respawning? I hate respawning. Are we talking respawning a la G2 (where some low-level critters respawn between chapters) or respawning a la Diablo 2 or Far Cry where you turn your back and bam, all enemies are back?

Originally Posted by wiretripped
Couldn't have said it better. The atmosphere in both G1 and G2 is still unrivaled to this day, imo.

Rose-tinted glasses perhaps? ;-)

While the way the town / world lived in Gothic was a great novelty back then, it's not the case anymore. It's been part of basically every open world games produced since. Imo, the one I found the most amazing is in Cyberpunk 2077. The way the city breathes is simply breathtaking. More recent PB/Bethesda games have also been doing a great job at it.

Originally Posted by wiretripped
I've yet to play Elex (though it's on my shortlist of games to start), but heavy respawning? I hate respawning. Are we talking respawning a la G2 (where some low-level critters respawn between chapters) or respawning a la Diablo 2 or Far Cry where you turn your back and bam, all enemies are back?

It's certainly not Diablo-like but yes, enemies (re)spawn after a while. Personally, it has never bothered me. If anything, it makes returning to places I already visited a little more interesting.

I don't remember heavy respawning either, but it's more than the earlier games from PB

I have to admit, that I don't remember many respawns in Elex 1, if any at all. Humans and special monsters like trolls surely don't respawn and I don't think many other critters do. For example there is a deserted motel/restaurant, where you search for your lost equipment in one of your first companion quests and none of the critters in and around it are back if you return later. Only exception might be standard wildlife like jackals.

Well I can verify every time I reload a save the next day the enemies re-spawned in Elex 1. So yes it has some type of re-spawn system in place. So that's not a lie.

Even monsters l killed a few hours back re-spawned at times.

I really, really loved the first area of Elex 1. I really, really got bored after I left that area. I got my money's worth though, and will buy Elex 2. I probably should retry Elex 1.