What will be Bioshock's impact on the cRPG?

I haven't gotten bitter, just coldly realistic.

I count 7 threads in this section alone on Bioshock and then I calculate the overall % they (and the others) constitute.

Many other threads on STALKER and other FPS consolitis clickfests as well.

It's becoming a plague, and I hope before you think of attacking the messenger, that you investigate the current empirical scenario and calculate/measure it *precisely* and objectively. See the pattern/trend, and see if there is any truth to my claim.

If this place goes even further with the pro-FPS trend, it will effectively function as "FPS-Watch".

Lastly , I suggest that the editors and managers of this *potentially*great *traditionalist CRPG* forum create a seperate section for FPS Pseudo-Rpg's, otherwise it really will become "FPS Watch", and that would be utterly tragic (and totally avoidable) imo.

hey i'm all for that. can it be at the back of the bus too!

Personally, I agree; all mention of Bio$hock should be in the non-rpg section, but I don't make those admin decisions!!

I count 7 threads in this section alone on Bioshock and then I calculate the overall % they (and the others) constitute.

Many other threads on STALKER and other FPS consolitis clickfests as well.

You counted 7 threads about Bioshock in this forum section alone? Did you notice that there was a total of 248 threads?

I'm sorry that your only response to the issues raised is to use this thread as a platform to vent your problems in a confrontational, vitriolic and hysterical manner. Had you chosen to argue your point like an adult, it could have been a productive discussion.

Frankly, at the risk of lessening your feeling of self-importance, I believe your crusade for justice to be egregious, picayune and totally unnecessary.

No one is saying FPS = RPG but you. (and JemyM in a thread where everybody else argued that S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was NOT one. )

What people choose to play and discuss isn't dictated by this site or any corporate mind control conspiracy, but by the members who play the games and post and respond to the threads.

We're talking about individual human beings, not the Borg.

As for your suggestion to have a little FPS concentration camp and segregate the impure games away in their own section so that *genuine* gamers are not contaminated, there already is a non-RPG section, and I agree that Bioshock belongs there. Some people aren't that anal about where they post a thread, however.

(I posted the topic in this section only because I wanted to discuss a **NON- RPG** in relationship to the cRPG genre.Turned out to be a really bad idea. My apologies to the site for drawing this kind of flak.)



By the way, in case there is any doubt, THESE ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND NOT THE POLICY OR OPINIONS OF ANYONE ELSE --especially the site.

two of the posts are mine and i apologize for my haphazardness. i think they were before the game was released so i wasn't it entirely sure it would be a fps solely dispite then said it would be. (though i do think it makes a far better role playing experience than most rpgs thats a different subject).

i am fps
resistance is futile

picayune- that is a sweet word, had to look it up. mike take note, i know its been a while but when you use $50 dollar words pick some tasty ones like that. if only the definition were something sweeter my unborn child could hate me for naming them that.

• Basically it's the moderator's call if they want to move the Bioshock threads or not, which depends on their perception of the game's CRPG-ness. But since it's your forum and you agreed, Corwin, I took the liberty of moving those threads to the non-RPG forum with a temporary redirect.

• We definitely don't need an FPS concentration camp, as magerette put it (-> I really like your style! ), because we already have a non-RPG section.

• About Arpyjee's 'FPS Pseudo-Rpg's': with yet another (and another, and another…) type of forum, even more 'wrong' threads will start to appear all over the place because some people might use other definitions of what constitutes 'real' RPGs, non-RPGs and 'Pseudo'-RPGs. Unless we put down detailed definitions in the forum descriptions, and even then people will disagree about if a certain game belonged here or there. As Dhruin wrote so well:

  Originally Posted by Dhruin
  That (RPG) line is often difficult to find and, as I've said before, our policy was always to be more inclusive than exclusive.

• Originally Posted by Arpyjee
  *traditionalist CRPG* forum

  If by this you mean that most of the staff have seen CRPGs emerge from the viscous primal swamps of gaming back in the days, then you might be correct. All other assumptions are just that, assumptions: the site's name is RPGWatch, not 'Turn-based Isometric Party Management RPGWatch'.

• The more forums are offered, the higher the percentage of dead forums… which is a 'tradition' we'd rather not repeat with RPGWatch.

Now for the thread topic: If Bioshock continues to sell this well we *might* indeed see more western CRPGs in non-generic fantasy settings… or at least more games with a similar cover . Once again, just my personal opinion .

This is so stupid! Who gives a shit about this guys stupid rant? Nobody is forcing him to buy any of these "evil" fps-rpg's.

Thanks Jaz, since I don't mod the non-rpg forum I wasn't sure about moving them there myself. I WISH Bio had been an rpg; I love the SS games, but it's not. However, it IS a great game and deserves to be discussed by those who like it. This is a fairly inclusive site and WE like it that way!!

Sounds like one of those guys that only listens to 80's music. Anything before and after is crap…

So, here is my conundrum, Arpyjee: Baldur's Gate is a clickfest. It's entirely dominated by combat, has absolutely no specialist dialogue skills, no alternative endings I am aware of, is very linear (other than some sidequests and wandering) and has virtually no choices with significant consequences. It is - by my assessment criteria - a poor CRPG.

I quite enjoyed it, by the way - but it's more of a linear adventure with stats than a game with genuine roleplaying opportunities.

Should I exclude it?

And the best RPG released in years is Geneforge 4. Have you bought it?

Originally Posted by Jaz
We definitely don't need an FPS concentration camp, as magerette put it (-> I really like your style! …

Agree. That post was very entertaining. You should get angry more often, Maggie .

I think Bioshock kinda fails on the "living world" aspect that Ken Lavine keeps going on about. Infact its HL2 with afew extra corridors to go down. Its a fun game in a stylish setting though. As for click fests Arpyjee you have a Diablo 2 Paladin for your avatar don't like to tell you this but that is a clickfest - its my favorite click fest mind, but still a click fest. Bioshock is a shooter nothing more nothing less.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
Agree. That post was very entertaining. You should get angry more often, Maggie .

I shouldn't have lost it, but I feel much better now.

Personally I really liked Jaz's line about the viscous primal swamps of gaming.

@woges; I don't know if that paladin avatar is from D2 or not, but it certainly has a great sneer going on.

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo2/wallpapers.shtml

He's is down there somewhere.

Ahh there he is: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo2/wallpapers/wall13.shtml

Oh teh irony!

I personally consider these new titles (Stalker, Bioshock, etc) regular fps games with a certain rpg inspiration, not rpg games with fps inspiration. I think it's a matter of the fps genre being affected by the rpg genre, not the other way around - something tells me Chris Avellone is not going to write another Planescape(or D&D in general) game as an fps anytime soon, no matter how much success these hybrids have.

I've played Bioshock a bit, but it's just not my cup of tea, so I re-installed Planescape: Torment and played through that instead. Amazing game, incredible writing, one of the few games I've ever played that rewards int/wisdom/charisma based characters more than physical ones.

I think you are broadly right. We started covering Bioshock mostly on the SS2 heritage (which really did get close-ish to RPG territory) and STALKER was added (but never covered comprehensively - we really only did a handful of post-release bits) because people kept writing in or posting that we should cover it.

Originally Posted by magerette
You counted 7 threads about Bioshock in this forum section alone? Did you notice that there was a total of 248 threads?

I'm sorry that your only response to the issues raised is to use this thread as a platform to vent your problems in a confrontational, vitriolic and hysterical manner. Had you chosen to argue your point like an adult, it could have been a productive discussion.

Frankly, at the risk of lessening your feeling of self-importance, I believe your crusade for justice to be egregious, picayune and totally unnecessary.

No one is saying FPS = RPG but you. (and JemyM in a thread where everybody else argued that S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was NOT one. )

What people choose to play and discuss isn't dictated by this site or any corporate mind control conspiracy, but by the members who play the games and post and respond to the threads.

We're talking about individual human beings, not the Borg.

As for your suggestion to have a little FPS concentration camp and segregate the impure games away in their own section so that *genuine* gamers are not contaminated, there already is a non-RPG section, and I agree that Bioshock belongs there. Some people aren't that anal about where they post a thread, however.

(I posted the topic in this section only because I wanted to discuss a **NON- RPG** in relationship to the cRPG genre.Turned out to be a really bad idea. My apologies to the site for drawing this kind of flak.)



By the way, in case there is any doubt, THESE ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND NOT THE POLICY OR OPINIONS OF ANYONE ELSE --especially the site.

Your response is seething with a flippant, emotional, irrational dismissal of reality. Therefore, you are hypocritical and oblivious in your false accusation of reality, rendering you unobjective.

You are employing pure "shoot-the-messenger and label him with negative stylistic labels according to your own subjective aesthetic / subjective impression" dismissive tactics.

It's common sense that the 7 *recent* Bioshock threads are to be contrasted with the *equally most recent NON-Bioshock threads*. On the most recent page in this section, there is a blatant Bioshock flood. You are apparently unwilling to acknowledge it, but if you remain strictly rational (and not impulsive-emotive-irrational), then you will see the *comparatively fair* and accurate reality.

There seems to be a heaping of false accusations, obfuscations and other erroneous fireworks, via the employment of phrases like "concentration camp"… which is absolutely irrational and over the top emotionalism, burning/exploding scarecrow style.

My post was a measured & reasonable response to the Bioshock *flood*, and the fact that it's more FPS than RPG, by far, yet it is disproportionately *dominating* the recent forum page.

A reasonable suggestion is to measure which is the predominant element in the game, and then devise a hybrid classification.

BG is clearly an RPG, heavier in combat & adventure than some would prefer, but the RPG element is dominant, and there are vast stretches of no kills / just dialogue & character interaction and impactful moral choices based on the alignment / reputation system ; Bioshock and STALKER are clearly predominantly FPS with Rpg elements. They've taken Doom , added character stats, a sprinkling of dialogue, a setting & theme. It's basically a first-person clickfest. Just play it and then go and play Doom to see the *predominant* foundation they share, as a first-person shooter.

Since when is a hybrid classification section a concentration camp ? That over-the-top and grossly inaccurate analogy is strictly based on an emotional outburst, unmeasured and divorced from reality.

I'd gladly accept BG in an Rpg-Adventure or Adventure section *if* the RPGWatch authorities rationally classify it as such, much as you should gladly accept Bioshock in an FPS or FPS-RPG section.

Let us be rational, and avoid false, inaccurate, impulsive attacks and gross misrepresentations.

dude you really should be relaxing not flipping out and going on a rampage with all that hashish you are smoking. if apologies (even though not warranted at all in this case) and thread moving isn't enough to appease a person who's extreme views are a minority then you sir are the definition of irrational. and being that bioshock was made by irrational i think its time you shake hands. or pass the peace pipe chief big smokeum.