Thoughts on Bioshock (MAJOR SPOILERS)

First thing is first: If you haven't finished Bioshock, then stay the fluffy out of this thread. I don't care if you decided never to buy it because of the DRM. Don't be a fool, the DRM is really a non-issue at this point. You can install and play the game much liek any other game now. The Activation servers are now stable. You truly are doing yourself a major disservice by not playing this game, or by reading any spoilers prior to finishing it.

With that said:

The game is not a 10 out of 10. As I stated in another thread, I'm not of the view that 10 out of 10 is a cinceptual impossibility, simply because the 'out of 10' scale is an abstraction. 10 just means closer to 9.5 than 10 for most mags or sites. The game, while being one of the best things I've ever played, and easily my personal favorite FPS ever, does have flaws that go beyond 'minor niggles'. Most of them, for me, are to do with theings that occur after the death of a certain main character. That death scene is probably the best death scene in any game I've ever played. I, personally, loved it. The emotional impact… seeing that bulletin board with a certain key phrase wirtten in blood- amazing. So, my thoughts on a few thins from the game (the blatant spoilers will begin here, if you've scroll down despite my warning, tough):















Would You Kindly - I had noticed that Atlas was saying this a lot. I had guessed that Atlas would betray me somehow. I hadn't quite put two and two together when I saw it written in blood though. When I did, I was flawed. I felt chills. I had been sent to kill the man who is pretty obviously my father. This reveal worked really well for me, because I had observed the fact that I had been doing whatever Atlas told me despite my suspicions. I was doing it because… well just because. I didn't really know why I was following all his orders… just doing it because the game told me to. So, for me, the reveal was brilliant.

Moira and Patrick - Something that a lot of people seem confused about is why Fontaine bothered with that whole charade. Would You Kindly is a blunt instrument, but not enough to get the job done alone. If Jack knew what was happening, he could have just dropped the radio, or destroyed it. Would You Kindly allows Fontaine to give commands, but if you knew what was happening, you could have found a way to break free. Sure, he could have said 'would you kindly make sure you keep listening to me' or something, but it was always going to be easier if Jack was a willing slave. Consider Fort Frolic where Choen cut you off from Atlas. If you had know what was up at that point, Fontaine's plan could have utterly unraveled. It made total sense to me.

Fort Frolic - Damn was this a good level. I can't gush enough about this level. When Choen sends the splicers after you, when he walks down the stairs as his masterpiece is complete. I was expecting to kill him at the end of the level, but at that point I couldn't bring myself to do it. Oh, and the tape about him pulling ears of the rabbit, holy shit was that good. This game has some of the best voice acting ever.

Post-Ryan Plot - this is where it fell apart a bit. I played the 'good path' and after I finished the game, I was wodnering what happened if you were harvesting. I figured that you wouldn't have gotten rescued by little sisters, or gotten any help from Tennebaum. Apparenty it's exactly the same. Why did I need to assemble a Big-Daddy suit? Those kids clearly liked me anyway, I didn't quite understand that. I get that they wanted, maybe needed to do that sequence. It was great in some ways, I felt really bad when I lost a sister, and wanted ot reload. I didn't though. I lost a total of two, and it hurt both times. Apparently they are in unlimited supply, and if you lost many more, the sequence probably didn't feel like it worked. I also expected that the game would open up for the last section after being linear up until then. If that last part had held together better, and had you been given true free-reign to do whatever the hell you wanted after Would You Kindly is defused, then the game probably would have been a 10. Oh Well.

Is It an RPG? No. It's really not. You have no ownership over the character. He isn't the Player's Character, he's just the character you view the world through. There are very limited RPG elements, but the game is not an RPG at all. It isn't fair to call it 'just a shooter' though.

i share a lot of the same sentiments. fort frolic was probably the best level over all but all of the levels were awesome to me. i really liked arcadia and the farmers market. its interesting keep an eye out in fort frolic for a poster of a play with the names patrick and moria…i noticed it in my current second playthrough and thought damn thats awesome. i don't see how they could have made the game better but it does have flaws like the no death penalty. it should disable you from using plasmids at the very least for a little while. though on that note in ryan's office you may notice that the vita chamber has actually been deactivated and you can switch it back on…its the little things like this of contiunity that make the game so believable and enjoyable. i would love to see a bioshock prequel that dealt with different factions in the game and was broken up into chapters where you could see the city thriving and also be witness to its demise. that would be a massive effort and a much longer game but it would make for a great rpg rather than a great shooter.

Originally Posted by Badesumofu
I also expected that the game would open up for the last section after being linear up until then. If that last part had held together better, and had you been given true free-reign to do whatever the hell you wanted after Would You Kindly is defused, then the game probably would have been a 10. Oh Well.

The most thematically appropriate and satisfying explanation would be that Tenenbaum implanted her own suggestion while she had you under. "Suchong built your mind with many locks. Fontaine holds most of the keys, but not all." But the theory doesn't hold water. There's no other reason to believe Lot 192 didn't cure you completely, I don't see any code phrases in her radio transmissions, and she would've taken advantage of it and prevented you from harvesting Little Sisters.

It looks like the explanation she gives is the correct one: you're "choosing" to take revenge on Fontaine and either rescue or exploit the Sisters. Lame.

I have a question about the rescuing or exploiting the Sisters part. What if you just rescued some of them? Would that be the same as if you didn't rescue any?

i don't know but i'd say the game might give you a grace 'exploit' the first time but personally i think there's really no reason to not choose all or none. personally i'd say a persons morals are quite screwed up if they were consistent in rationalizing one over the other.

Originally Posted by curiously undead
i don't know but i'd say the game might give you a grace 'exploit' the first time but personally i think there's really no reason to not choose all or none. personally i'd say a persons morals are quite screwed up if they were consistent in rationalizing one over the other.

Not sure if I quite understand what you're saying the way you explained it. Are you saying that if I kill 1 sister it's the same as killing them all? So you must not exploit any of them to have an effect on the ending, correct?

i don't know from personal experience as i refuse to even "test" it out. but its a very iffy and mixed message encouter the first meeting you have with a little sister. you don't even have to kill a big daddy, she's just there. its all what you believe and feel. so my question to you is are you really going to suddenly change your mind after playing. ultimately if you're a cautious type you won't harvest her and most likely that feeling will only solidify. however you could very easily harvest her straightaway, and then possibly have doubts later. but if you've made that choice already, its most likely not that crucial as "its just a game". so really i think it would be petty if they made the choice something like oh you only harvested two little sisters thats almost the same as none…but its not the same at really. so yes i'm pretty sure its an all or none scenario but that's based on my assumptions and i think i did scan some post somewhere that said the "good" ending is only possible if you don't harvest any.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I have a question about the rescuing or exploiting the Sisters part. What if you just rescued some of them? Would that be the same as if you didn't rescue any?

Yes. Basically look at it this way, how would you be treated if you killed one little girl rather than 10?

Originally Posted by txa1265
Yes. Basically look at it this way, how would you be treated if you killed one little girl rather than 10?

Eh…..?

We're talking about a video game here, they don't always correlate with the way things happen in the real world.

I thought the answer was obvious but I just wanted to make sure.

Originally Posted by JDR13
We're talking about a video game here, they don't always correlate with the way things happen in the real world.

This game is so full of these sorts of societal overtones that some things *are* obvious - that harvesting Little Sisters is abhorrent, and that the game doesn't handle things like a D&D Alignment shift, where you could do an action of evil and then two of good and the net effect is still positive.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I thought the answer was obvious but I just wanted to make sure.

My ten characters.

Well, to answer your question JDR13: It's all or none. In the beginning I was very confused about this harvesting/rescuing thing so I harvested 2-3 Little Sisters, but after that I decided I didn't want to treat them like that and I rescued the rest, perhaps 10 Little Sisters.
And yes, I still got the "bad" ending, which was very absurd because that didn't match the way I had played the game. You ought to have been given the choice after killing Fontaine instead.

So it's a "bad" ending, not just different? How many different endings are there?

Originally Posted by JDR13
So it's a "bad" ending, not just different? How many different endings are there?

Apparently 3 - one if you harvest at all, one if you rescue all, and one if you don't ever do either.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Apparently 3 - one if you harvest at all, one if you rescue all, and one if you don't ever do either.

So you can bypass them entirely if you want? I never even thought of that.

Originally Posted by JDR13
So you can bypass them entirely if you want? I never even thought of that.

Neither did I … I read it somewhere … don't remember whih forum since *everyone* has Bioshock threads.

Can't imagine why anyone would want to though, those encounters are the best part of the game by far.

Originally Posted by abbaon
The most thematically appropriate and satisfying explanation would be that Tenenbaum implanted her own suggestion while she had you under. "Suchong built your mind with many locks. Fontaine holds most of the keys, but not all." But the theory doesn't hold water. There's no other reason to believe Lot 192 didn't cure you completely, I don't see any code phrases in her radio transmissions, and she would've taken advantage of it and prevented you from harvesting Little Sisters.

There was evidence in the game that you could control someone with a set of certain words. But then why wouldn't it possible to control someone based on something else like the tone of your voice? Fontain in some transmissions keeps nagging to you how easily you obey everyone and how you put so much faith in Tandenbaum. But based on Tandenbaum's log files I agree she would have probably stopped you from harming the little sisters.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Apparently 3 - one if you harvest at all, one if you rescue all, and one if you don't ever do either.

I got the family ending where I saved the little sisters despite that I harvested one at the beginning. In that ending there is no mention at all what happened to Tandenbaum despite that she playes the narrator at the ending. I think this might leave room open for a sequel or an expansion.

i don't think tenenbaum would try and control you as by the time you the player are interacting with her in the rapture timeline she has become remorseful of her actions and besides if she forced you to do things then she would be setting up resentment in you which could backfire and have you group her and the little sisters as enemies and then they'd be worse off. no i think her only option is to encourage you and hope that you will "do the right thing", thats the only way she can be sure that the little sisters will truly be protected because ultimately the big daddies are mindless protectors who can be exploited and make you just another 'mindless' big daddy would be pointless. remember her and fontaine never got along more than out of need for each other, whereas with ryan she shared alot of the same ideals, she was much more interested in what was possible rather than how to profit or exploit it. by like levine has said everyone is flawed. by her actions she even follows ryans mantra- "a man chooses, a slave obeys". which to me falls in with the little sister choice perfectly as tenebaum was unwilling to make you a slave.

Originally Posted by Surlent
I got the family ending where I saved the little sisters despite that I harvested one at the beginning. In that ending there is no mention at all what happened to Tandenbaum despite that she playes the narrator at the ending. I think this might leave room open for a sequel or an expansion.

So you can harvest the first Little Sister and still get the best ending, or is there an even better ending if you rescue ALL of them.

*Edit* Nevermind, I've been informed from multiple sources that there are only 2 endings.

Are you sure that you harvested one of them?