Gender relations in The Witcher

I think it says something about the game that a topic like this isn't completely ridiculous in the context. ("Gender relations in NWN2? Uh… ok…")

First off, it goes way, way beyond the sex minigame. There's a pretty complex underlay of mores and structures there that determines how stuff works. I think I can discern at least four distinct but interrelated sets of mores that determine gender relations. I'm just starting Act III, so I've seen Temple Quarter and a part of Trade Quarter.

I'll try to keep spoilers to a minimum here, but some might be inevitable.

(1) Agrarian/traditionalist -- most evident in the Outskirts

This is a strongly patriarchal society. Women are pretty much powerless -- a raped girl resorts to suicide, a barmaid plays the role of the "decent girl" if there's anyone looking but seems quite eager for a tryst when there isn't; a young woman living on her own is assumed to prostitute herself, is despised and feared, and is ready to resort to bartering sexual favors to solve her problems.

(2) Urban/clerical-bourgeois -- most evident in Temple Quarter and a part of the Trade Quarter

Here there's also a pretty clear division of roles, and a clearly patriarchal society. Women are presented as female companions, wives, nurses, or prostitutes. Men are merchants, craftsmen, clerics, or militiamen. People from the agrarian/traditionalist layer of society clearly aspire to join this class (as evidenced by Mikul and the respect accorded to Reverend). Women of this class with ambitions of their own don't have many options open to them -- the only example of an independent woman here is Carmen the leader of the Temple Quarter prostitutes. Probably not exactly every girl's dream job. Sexual mores seem quite tight and traditionalist (as evidenced by Granny's desire to chaperone Shani).

(3) Educated/upper class -- in Trade Quarter, as well as some individuals in the other areas

In this class, women clearly have much more liberties than in the other classes: we have a princess blithely ordering a duke about, a sorceress freely mixing with the (male) movers and shakers of the world, and a doctor pursuing an independent career. These are no shrinking violets; they're women who know what they want and are able to get it. It's also clear that they're not rebels against the system, but parts of it: society treats upper-class women much the same way as men, if that's the role they take on themselves. Sexual mores are clearly very liberal: there's very little to no social penalty for sexually active women (or men, for that matter). Dalliances between aristocrats (married or not) seem common, and high-class courtesans are fairly highly regarded.

(4) Barbarian/primitivist?

I haven't run into this much, but it seems pretty clear that dryads, druids, and elves have some fairly different ideas about gender relations than the other groups discussed above. Elven resistance fighters include women fighting alongside the men, dryad society appears to be exclusively female, and druids don't seem to find anything out of place about a buck-naked (and absolutely knock-down gorgeous) dryad living with them.

Thoughts, anyone?

Not having my copy yet, I 'm just responding to your outline and impressions, but it strikes me as a fairly complex and layered view of gender roles that remains consistent with the game worldview.

Perhaps women of the upper classes are the only ones secure enough due to wealth and position to behave naturally, i.e., with the same empowerment as males. The agrarian female is of course always valued highest for her biological role, and that seems to fit this world, which is loosely patterned on our own but has some rather basic differences.

Since we're exploring this gender thing, Prime J, can you tell whether women are ever chosen to be Witchers, btw? (Noting that this would not be a privilege, of course.)

Much as I hate to drag religion into any discussion, I think it might be pertinent to the discussion of morals--do the poorer elements of society follow the same gods as the wealthier?. Because if so, that would seem to place the stricter morals among the poor definitely in the social pariah mode--in a patriarchal society property passes through the male line; men wish to know their offspring is legitimately of their bloodline, thus female promiscuity becomes a social and financial misdemeanor. Where all parties are endowed with wealth and power regardless of gender, a woman may carry a material value as well as a biological one, and unions are material and political as well as purely biological. Aristocracy has pretty much always had a separate set of morals, at least once an heir has been produced.

It's obvious the barbarians and druids are pagans, so we know where they fall.(pre-patriarchal would be my assumption--)

This examination really does seem to show that the Witcher is built around a very mature and consistent core with a clear view of it's world. Looking forward to playing it very much.

AFAICT witchers are always men -- the ones in Kaer Morhen at the start of the game certainly are --, but you'll have to ask the Polish Sapkowski fans to get a definite answer. It does seem something of a hyper-masculine brotherhood. (Random line of dialog from a passer-by: "It's a witcher! Look to your women!")

Re religion: there appear to be two main "official" cults being followed: the church of Eternal Flame and the church of Melitele. The former is pretty obviously a masculine, patriarchal, law-and-order, militant God type -- the knightly Order of the Flaming Rose follow him, as do several bearded, highly unpleasant clerics; Melitele is as obviously female -- a triune goddess of fertility, harvest, and such. Both appear to be worshipped at all levels of society, and they don't appear to be at odds as much as complementing each other. I think the parallels are pretty clear here too -- the Knights and the clerics are much like medieval religious knightly orders and traditional (male) clerics, while Melitele and her worshippers are much like the Holy Virgin and various sisterhoods of nuns. Not unlike Polish history, in fact.

I'm pretty sure you'll like it. It's almost a shame about those naughty postcards -- way too many people seem to get hung up on them, and don't see the forest for the trees.

I would say "It's a witcher! Look to your women!" does pretty well state the case. Not a bad thing--many times roles are a reflection of reality as well as stereotype.

It looks like they've sliced religion into its many component parts and given it social and symbolic significance, not just "I swear by Helm, whoever he may be" stuff. Again, things like this add realism and support the story and the world. I'm sure it helps to have a rich literary background in Sapkowski's novels to draw on, but still, it's unusual to see a game world so vividly executed that I already have a feeling for it without even having started to play the game.

AFA naughty postcards; I don't find them particularly offensive (silly? immature? no comment). It's just a fact that this is a view of women and a response men are wired to have and from it springs everything else that both complicates male/female relationships and makes them possible to begin with. I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that the roleplaying aspect permits Geralt to explore these areas or not as you care to play him--this is very redeeming as far as maturity and realism go.

My copy appears to actually be shipping(yes!) so I'll be able to experience the Witcher for myself soon.

There's definitely some silliness and immaturity there -- to the point of unintentional humor. (Example: most of the women in Geralt's life seem to wear the same kind of nightdress, and believe me it's not made out of flannel. There are times when that looks a bit out of place…)

Originally Posted by magerette
Since we're exploring this gender thing, Prime J, can you tell whether women are ever chosen to be Witchers, btw? (Noting that this would not be a privilege, of course.)

No women - witchers.
I'll quote Geralt:
"- Geralt why there is none female Witchers?
- Really, Boholt look at me. Do you imagine me as a fine looking chick?"

But Ciri (girl) was trained in the Kaer Morhem - she was under Geralt protection. She got through the same training as future witchers - she became much stronger, faster ect. than normal people. But she didn't pass a "trial of herbs" - so she wasn't mutated.
" - She's just a girl, and you're making from her a killing machine.
- We are teaching her the Sword becouse we don't have anything else to teach her."

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
(2) Urban/clerical-bourgeois -- most evident in Temple Quarter and a part of the Trade Quarter

Here there's also a pretty clear division of roles, and a clearly patriarchal society. Women are presented as female companions, wives, nurses, or prostitutes. Men are merchants, craftsmen, clerics, or militiamen. People from the agrarian/traditionalist layer of society clearly aspire to join this class (as evidenced by Mikul and the respect accorded to Reverend). Women of this class with ambitions of their own don't have many options open to them -- the only example of an independent woman here is Carmen the leader of the Temple Quarter prostitutes. Probably not exactly every girl's dream job. Sexual mores seem quite tight and traditionalist (as evidenced by Granny's desire to chaperone Shani).

I think granny might not be the best example. Seeing how she softens up once you bribe her with alcohol. Well she does comment about someone as old as Geralt going after younger women. Alright, when I think about it more it is a rather good example. I think that's pretty much the only example there is. There is the barmaid who got beaten by his husband I quess and is too scared to join Geralt in the back.
I agree about Carmen being the only independent woman. The nurses could maybe be an example of a strong community of women. No doctors who are more prestigious. Well a bit of a pointless speculation since the nurses have such a small role and theres not very much info on them. They could be religious looked a lot like nuns to me.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
(3) Educated/upper class -- in Trade Quarter, as well as some individuals in the other areas

In this class, women clearly have much more liberties than in the other classes: we have a princess blithely ordering a duke about, a sorceress freely mixing with the (male) movers and shakers of the world, and a doctor pursuing an independent career. These are no shrinking violets; they're women who know what they want and are able to get it. It's also clear that they're not rebels against the system, but parts of it: society treats upper-class women much the same way as men, if that's the role they take on themselves. Sexual mores are clearly very liberal: there's very little to no social penalty for sexually active women (or men, for that matter). Dalliances between aristocrats (married or not) seem common, and high-class courtesans are fairly highly regarded.

The sorceresses seem to have some sort of an alliance between each other which is referred to as the Sorcerers Lodge I think. So some women have banded together to gain political power. I think the Lodge was only for women, maybe a kind of a feminist movement?
There was the daughter of a very influential merchant (he got Dandelion the pass he needed to get into the Trade Quarter). The merchant finds his daughter and Dandelion the poet having sexual intercourse and immediately kicks him out. The father doesn't explain why he found it offending though.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
(4) Barbarian/primitivist?

I haven't run into this much, but it seems pretty clear that dryads, druids, and elves have some fairly different ideas about gender relations than the other groups discussed above. Elven resistance fighters include women fighting alongside the men, dryad society appears to be exclusively female, and druids don't seem to find anything out of place about a buck-naked (and absolutely knock-down gorgeous) dryad living with them.

Like you say it could be just an elven culture thing. Don't see any dwarf women fighting for the Scoia'tel, don't see dwarf women anywhere else either though. Maybe dwarven men and women just look the same. In the temple quarter I noticed some "she-elves" as the game labelled them, but I haven't seen any elven men in Vizima. This might be because of some gender differences in warfare. Elven women live in the city while the men go to fight.
Maybe the druids are just used to the dryad. Need some information about where the druids come from to continue analyzing I think. If they come from the city they would most likely find a naked and beautiful dryad disturbing but if they're born in the wild that would explain it a lot easier. The druids being primitive and used to scantily (if at all) clad women.
The brickmakers society in the swamps is rather weird too since they comprise only of men and old Vasna. I mean where do the children come from? Could just be lazy developers I quess. Looking at the character models you can see where they tried to save time. Not the main characters naturally but the less important ones who fill the empty spaces so to speak and build the atmosphere, you know what I mean.
Very interesting topic. Wouldn't have thought of Gender relations in the game otherwise.

Originally Posted by ironanno
The brickmakers society in the swamps is rather weird too since they comprise only of men and old Vasna. I mean where do the children come from? Could just be lazy developers I quess. Looking at the character models you can see where they tried to save time. Not the main characters naturally but the less important ones who fill the empty spaces so to speak and build the atmosphere, you know what I mean.
Very interesting topic. Wouldn't have thought of Gender relations in the game otherwise.

I always prefer to think of in-game solutions to puzzles like this. For example:

The brickmaker women are inside the house and are told to stay inside the house, at least that's what a random woman said to Geralt when I try to talk to her in one of the house (in a popup sentences, not a cutscene).

I quess this is what happens when I start commenting without playing the game to the end. I should have visited the houses. Sorry developers, you're not lazy about the brickmakers after all. I was just making points that sprang to mind so if you notice any other inconsistencies with what you've seen don't wonder.

As a fan of Sapkowski's books, I'd say that the original poster's assesment is pretty much correct, although there are also differences between the various kingdoms and between the Northen Kingdoms and the Nilfgaard Empire, as well as with both of them and more exotic lands like Zerrikania, which is ruled by female warriors.

Originally Posted by ironanno
The sorceresses seem to have some sort of an alliance between each other which is referred to as the Sorcerers Lodge I think. So some women have banded together to gain political power. I think the Lodge was only for women, maybe a kind of a feminist movement?

Yes, the Lodge is a female-only secret society formed during the Nordling-Nilfgaard War by sorceresses from the Northern Kingdoms and Nilfgaard. Before that, in the Northern Kingdoms there existed the Chapter of Wizards and the Highest Council of Wizards with members of both sexes that were the highest authority in the matters of magic, but things got complicated after a certain event on Thanedd Island (I won't disclose the details for those who don't want spoilers for the books).

Like you say it could be just an elven culture thing. Don't see any dwarf women fighting for the Scoia'tel, don't see dwarf women anywhere else either though. Maybe dwarven men and women just look the same. In the temple quarter I noticed some "she-elves" as the game labelled them, but I haven't seen any elven men in Vizima. This might be because of some gender differences in warfare. Elven women live in the city while the men go to fight.

Males and females are largely equal in the elven society. As for dwarves, they are fewer than men and rarely leave their homelands in Mahakam.

I think they went too far by having the Lady of the Lake desire Geralt as well. C'mon-- she is a diety. Desires of the flesh should not interest her. Nor should she care if her subjects find her attractive or not.

"Dost thou desire my ass, Geralt?"

She actually says that? I ran with the joke instead and was knighted Sir Bonehead.

Originally Posted by KazikluBey
She actually says that? I ran with the joke instead and was knighted Sir Bonehead.

Nah, that was my quote. But in the actual game when she asks specifically for a compliment regarding her looks, Geralt says "Your ass is the finest of them all…" (Or something like that).