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purpleblob
Guest
I don't see you explaining how RTwP outdated in that post. You just stated you don't prefer it.
Pillars of Eternity - Interviews & New Video
- Thread starter Couchpotato
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I don't see you explaining how RTwP outdated in that post. You just stated you don't prefer it.
I find all those "tactics" in RTwP shallow. I hate the clasterfuck in that system. Making all characters hit the strong enemy mage is not a strategic move for me. It's simple logic. I'm sorry if you feel offended by that, in no way I try to insult you and since English in not my first language I might do it by mistake with my tone.
I guess I like combat in my party RPG to be slow. I don't mind if I have to make a character do the same thing, it will always look better than 10 guys frantically hitting each other, with silly looping animations.
NeverWinter Nights 2 by Obsidian was good in terms of combat but it never was great. I doubt it'll be different in PoE.
Because I think it should have died with NWN2. The combat in DA Origins was unbelievably boring and easy. RTwP is not the smartest, not the best looking and certainly not the best way to implement meaningful stats in a cRPG. TB will never be dated for me since tactics will always be useful. It's all a matter of opinion of course.
They're basically the same tactics you would use in TB.
It depends on the game for me. TB combat wouldn't have been practical in games like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, or Dragon Age due to the amount of combat. I probably would have died of old age before I finished any of them.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
RTwP is often shoddily done. I don't expect that from this game - although Obsidian surely have been guilty of that in the past (i.e. NWN2). Bad controls/ camera, unhelpful UI and hectic/ fast combat can all contribute to making RTwP basically mindless hack&slash. But with PoE, Obs has talked for instance about how it's gonna be important to control the space around your character - something that's often impossible in badly done RTwP (try to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity in NWN2!).
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There's room for both. My personal preference leans towards turn based but I would agree that most of the negatives brought up in this tread about RTwP are more about implementation than the system itself.
The biggest problem with RTwP comes when they balance it for people who want to play it hack'n slash style and not worry about tactics and pausing too often. They need to make skill use and tactics necessary to win, not just an option.
I backed the game and I'm glad I did. I like to keep my exposure to a minimum before I play but I like what I have seen so far.
Turn based games were few and far between for a while but fans can't really complain about the recent trends.
The biggest problem with RTwP comes when they balance it for people who want to play it hack'n slash style and not worry about tactics and pausing too often. They need to make skill use and tactics necessary to win, not just an option.
I backed the game and I'm glad I did. I like to keep my exposure to a minimum before I play but I like what I have seen so far.
Turn based games were few and far between for a while but fans can't really complain about the recent trends.
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greywolf00
Keeper of the Watch
I don't mind RTwP but the depth of combat is rarely the same as a good TB system imo. Cover and height are generally excluded from non TB games and they can make a big difference when implemented well, though I'm sure they could be implemented in a RTwP system (I just can't think of any instances off the top of my head). I also agree the IE games were so massive with so much combat that a TB system probably wasn't a good idea.
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Deleted User
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I don't agree that depth of combat is sacrificed in RTwP. I just recently played Baldur's Gate and a lot of the tougher battles might as well have been turn-based because I had to constantly pause and issue commands. I understand not having cover or height implemented in a game like BG, but I never once felt that game had any lack of combat depth. I would say the combat in BG was more satisfying than the turn-based combat in Avadon 2, although both games are good and both systems are good as well. I like turn-based, too, but RTwP in a game like Pillars of Eternity is ideal for me.
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Hey greywolf, just re-reading your comment for the 10th time. Can you think of an example on how complete TB vs RTwP (as governed similar to Baldurs Gate style and not Action with Pause style) is deeper? Or can you expand on your comment? I'm trying to come up with similarities but I'm failing.
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Yeah, mentioning cover and height would make more sense if we were talking about XCOM or something similar, but I can't think of many fantasy-based RPGs that make use of such features.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
It might be slightly academical, but when people say they want TB, they don't mean they want half-assed TB. There's a section about cover in the D&D basic rules, it's just that such features often fall under the table when converted to vidya games. Nevertheless it's a valid point I'd say, as cover and stance add nice depth to TB combat, while NO ONE wants to deal with cover in a real time, party based RPG. Without a grid and with a hundred things going on on the battlefield at a time, you don't want to constantly readjust your wizard's position behind some bushes.
I just think the point would be a little more valid if there was a basis for comparison. Like I said, how many fantasy-based RPGs use those features? Perhaps I should have said "crpgs", but I assumed it would be taken for granted that I was referring to gaming.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
I think the point is that you have different (more) tactical Options in TB that wouldn't work/ be a chore to keep track of in RTwP. The vast majority of vidya game RPG's don't have attacks of opportunity, for example; but some do, and it's something that makes TB cool but not RTwP. If you've followed PoE's development, they tried to innovate quite a bit with the character progression and conflict resolution, so it seems fair to have expectations that go beyond what you have seen in older RPG's.
greywolf00
Keeper of the Watch
The TB fantasy RPG with great combat that utilizes height, though not cover in XCOM sense that I was thinking of is Final Fantasy Tactics. Too much of a height disparity prevented attacking certain targets. I'm not 100% and could be wrong on this but I think height also gave a bonus to hit % (like the flanking mechanic) but been so long don't quote me on that. I've also seen other TB systems where height = + range for attacks with a bow for example, but I don't think that applied to FF:T. The LOS mechanics were interesting though, a bow could shoot over a wall with the right trajectory where as a gun or crossbow couldn't.
Stuff like that is a hassle to keep track of in RT. Fleunt has a good point where he mentioned the harder battles in BG requiring a bit of planning and pausing. It's been awhile since I played through BG so my memory is probably foggy and I again could be wrong but I remember most of that being for controlling buffs/debuffs/healing which is a normal part of FF:T too.
There's nothing about RTwP that prevents any of that being implemented, I just don't think it's the ideal system for it.
Stuff like that is a hassle to keep track of in RT. Fleunt has a good point where he mentioned the harder battles in BG requiring a bit of planning and pausing. It's been awhile since I played through BG so my memory is probably foggy and I again could be wrong but I remember most of that being for controlling buffs/debuffs/healing which is a normal part of FF:T too.
There's nothing about RTwP that prevents any of that being implemented, I just don't think it's the ideal system for it.
I'm not sure if that was the point, but I don't disagree that it's easier to implement some features in TB. It goes without saying that certain things will be easier in a system where only a single unit is acting at any given time.
I like both systems, but RTwP is even rarer than TB nowadays. That's one of the reasons why I'm glad they decided to use it for PoE.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
The only reason I'm glad they went RTwP is that otherwise the game would not have been made or made on a smaller budget. They needed to promise people real time combat to incite that Infinity Engine nostalgia.