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August 24th, 2018, 09:57
To each his own, to each his own. It's all subjective! There are no good points that can't be ignored.

*ahem*

Other than Dark Souls series, I'd suggest Mount and Blade: warband (crpg mod) and taking a LANCE. That couched lance damage while going full speed on your mount is the best damage headshots in the game!
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August 24th, 2018, 09:58
I didn't know it was an argument. If it is, it's not much of one.

I mean, no one rational is going to deny that there hasn't been significant streamling over the course of Betheseda's games.

I'm not claiming that all the streamling has had a negative effect. A lot of it was for the better. But there's definitely less variety now though in things like weapons, spells, skills, etc.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:00
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I didn't know it was an argument. If it is, it's not much of one.

I mean, no one rational is going to deny that there hasn't been significant streamling over the course of Betheseda's games.

I'm not claiming that all the streamling has had a negative effect. A lot of it was for the better. But there's definitely less variety though now in many things like the weapons, spells, skills, etc.
There's streamlining in 99% of all modern games - but that doesn't really mean anything.

How about the features I mentioned? Are they part of the streamlining or not? Or do you concede those would be additional features that Morrowind never had.

But we can certainly agree that Bethsoft games are more focused on what they've been trying to achieve since Morrowind.

If people were under the impression that Bethsoft were trying to create old-school PnP games with lots of numbers - then I can certainly understand why they consider Skyrim and Fallout 4 "streamlined" - but that's not how I see it.

Then again, I actually prefer the kind of game they're trying to achieve over the other kind of game - that I don't think is a great match for the first-person open world formula - which is focused on player agency and immersion.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:11
They've been console-ised! It's not streamlining; it's menus for mushrooms, as joxer would put it.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:13
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
There's streamlining in 99% of all modern games - but that doesn't really mean anything.

How about the features I mentioned? Are they part of the streamlining or not? Or do you concede those would be additional features that Morrowind never had.

But we can certainly agree that future Bethsoft games are more focused on what they've been trying to achieve since Morrowind.
At least half the things you mentioned are just technical advancements. So, no. I don't think better light and sound, physics, full voice acting, and AI make up for what I'm referring to. Those are the kind of things they could have advanced without streamlining the things I mentioned. They aren't replacements for them.

But I'm not saying their games are worse overall for it. That's completely subjective, but my opinion is that they're improving. I do think they'd be even more improved though if they stayed a little more complex at the same time instead of simplifying certain things and reducing variety.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:15
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
They've been console-ised! It's not streamlining; it's menus for mushrooms, as joxer would put it.
I think that's definitely part of it, yes. It's not just about consoles though, it's also about appealing to a larger common denominator.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:21
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
At least half the things you mentioned are just technical advancements. So, no. I don't think better light and sound, physics, full voice acting, and AI make up for what I'm referring to. Those are the kind of things they could have advanced without streamlining the things I mentioned. They aren't replacements for them.
Half the things? I didn't say anything about better light or sound. I specifically mentioned stealth that was based around those things, which is about gameplay. Same goes for physics, like how they're part of superior archery - as well as how you interact with the world, including traps and puzzles. Full voice acting isn't a technical advancement - as it was fully possible in Morrowind, they just didn't have it - they went for text-based dialogues. I would guess that's about budget more than anything.

Pretty much everything I mentioned is gameplay related and something that never existed in Morrowind.

As such, I'm talking about expanded gameplay - not streamlined gameplay.

But I'm not saying their games are worse overall for it. That's completely subjective, but my opinion is that they're improving. I do think they've be even more improved though if they stayed a little more complex at the same time instead of simplifying certain things and reducing variety.
That's cool. Personally, I think there's MUCH more variety in modern Bethsoft games.

They don't have the same amount of skill and weapon categories, that's true. But the way you can build your character and progress through perks is a vast improvement over the "skill X does X amount more damage" design.

Also, I vastly prefer player agency in this sort of game. Meaning, where I actually point my sword and how I fight with it - and the same thing for bows, where my aim and understanding of gravity comes into play.

So, overall - I think they're much richer in terms of the actual gameplay and variety of playstyles - and all things play into that.

But I certainly concede that they're simpler on a surface level in terms of the numbers - and they're easier to grasp for the mainstream gamer, because the presentation is much cleaner.

Most of the complexity goes on under the hood, and it's easy to miss if you have your old-school glasses on and you're only focusing on how elaborate your character sheet is looking.

You're smarter than that, though, I'm sure. Fluent was very stuck on numbers and the amount of text on the screen. Tell me you're not like that?
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August 24th, 2018, 10:24
That said, there is a BIG problem in all Bethsoft games - and which has existed since Daggerfall, at least.

That's that their combat balance sucks balls. So, all those toys you get in Skyrim/FO4 don't mean much - because you don't actually need them to succeed.

Morrowind didn't have much in the way of toys - but it might have been the worst one of them all in terms of balance. It was pathetic, really - especially if you messed around with the spellcrafting (which is one of the FEW features that are genuinely missing from modern Beth games).

To me, that's a big problem - and not an easy one to solve, because open world games are a bitch to balance if you have any kind of complexity in the mechanics.

But, with enough mods - you can make it work sort of ok.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:28
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
That's cool. Personally, I think there's MUCH more variety in modern Bethsoft games.

So, overall - I think they're much richer in terms of the actual gameplay and variety of playstyles - and all things play into that.
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
But since I always go for stealth/archery - there's not a lot of Dark Souls in my Skyrim

Not that Skyrim melee combat is very good at all - but the archery is better than most CRPGs. Combined with stealth and all the toys you get in Skyrim, I find combat to be satisfying - but I would never recommend it for a thorougly fine-tuned and balanced experience.

When it's a big free-roaming game - it's very hard to balance something like archery, because it's so easy to exploit ranged combat in that type of game. So, I do what I can to make it interesting. I play without any kind of cross-hair for instance
So much variety you always pick the same thing. Avoiding being engaged in combat.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:40
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Half the things? I didn't say anything about better light or sound. I specifically mentioned stealth that was based around those things, which is about gameplay. Same goes for physics, like how they're part of superior archery - as well as how you interact with the world, including traps and puzzles. Full voice acting isn't a technical advancement - as it was full possible in Morrowind, they just didn't have it - they went for text-based dialogues. I would guess that's about budget more than anything.

Pretty much everything I mentioned is gameplay related and something that never existed in Morrowind.

As such, I'm talking about expanded gameplay - not streamlined gameplay.
You're talking about things that weren't in Morrowind (as an example since you mention Morrowind) because, apart from more voice acting, they couldn't have been due to technical limitations.

Yes, there are new things like you mentioned that are included now due to technical advances, but there's really no connection between those things and the stuff they removed. They could have added those things without reducing the variety of skills, weapons, and spells. Without removing the spell crafting system. Those aren't just numbers and text on the screen.

So it's not really about "Well yeah, but they added this!", it's about reductions that they didn't have to make.

But I agree that streamling is a universal thing in today's industry. I've never claimed otherwise.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:51
Yes, there are new things like you mentioned that are included now due to technical advances, but there's really no connection between those things and the stuff they removed. They could have added those things without reducing the variety of skills, weapons, and spells. Without removing the spell crafting system. Those aren't just numbers and text on the screen.
I'm confused. What's that point about technical advancement? Are you saying it's relevant somehow?

I'm talking about how modern Bethsoft games have a ton of GAMEPLAY features that weren't in Morrowind - so they didn't just remove stuff to streamline their games.

I say that because I felt your original statement was a little one-sided:

It's a shame spears were removed, along with so many other things, in Bethesda's constant effort to further streamline their games.

I mean, I hope you're aware that I could make the same silly counter-argument - and say that they didn't actually have to add those features, just because they could. I mean, if they only cared about streamlining - why add anything except prettier graphics, right?

So, that point makes no sense to me.

But you're right - they could have retained every single feature of past games. Some might have worked for their vision, and I definitely think spellcrafting was something they shouldn't have left out. That said, it was probably better for the balance.

Honestly, though, I think focusing the experience and making it less PnP-ish in terms of stats and skill categories paved the way for the kind of game they're really trying to make. The kind of game that's NOT just about dumbing down and appealing wide - but about the ultimate freeform immersive FP CRPG.

Something they have yet to achieve. But I think they're getting closer all the time.

So it's not really about "Well yeah, but they added this!", it's about concessions that they didn't have to make.
It's also about a lot of gameplay expansion they didn't have to make.

To me, we're having an exchange about Morrowind versus future games - and how I think future games are better overall.

You seem to agree with me.

But I agree that streamling is a universal thing in today's industry. I've never claimed otherwise.
No, but you certainly take extra care to mention it in this case and not another very obvious case that I will refrain from mentioning.

What I really don't understand is why you're always so down on Bethsoft when you seem to enjoy their modern games - and you actually agree with me that they're getting better.

I mean, you're obviously not obligated to actually say nice things about their games - I just think it's odd that you never really do.

But whatever.

Since we more or less agree, I see no reason to harp on the finer points.
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August 24th, 2018, 10:52
Don't forget that it all has to fit on 1 console sized disc. To properly console-ise your RPG you have to cut some things out or force the player to swap disc and/or take up a greedy amount of hard disk space. There's massive memory limitations too. Skyrim had to run on an xbox 360 with only 512MB memory shared between everything and was constantly streaming data in and out.
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August 24th, 2018, 11:02
That's cool.

It's obvious that you took my original statement a little personally for some reason. Fwiw, I mentioned Bethesda specifically because I was talking about Morrowind at the time and how I enjoyed using a spear.

If your argument is going to be that they added stuff that they didn't have to, then you're not getting it, but that's ok.

Go ahead and close this out with the classic Darth passive-aggressive statement.
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August 24th, 2018, 11:06
I'm not talking about just this thread, but how you always seem to join the crowd in Bethsoft bashing when you actually enjoy their games for the most part.

Then again, I've never really had that need to "fit in" more than being fair - so maybe that's why I'll never get it

Go ahead and close this out with the classic JDR passive-aggressive statement.

Well, another one of those statements, I mean.
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August 24th, 2018, 11:10
Points for the unintended assist there.
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August 24th, 2018, 11:12
I just remembered that Titan Quest also has spears. At least, I'm almost sure it did - and I believe I actually enjoyed the spear-based combat in that game

The Diablo 2 Amazon class also had them!
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August 24th, 2018, 11:18
If Bethsoft games didn't deserve bashing they wouldn't require so many mods to make them playable.

That said, I played without mods because mods are basically cheats made by kids for kids.

If for no other reason, Bethsoft deserves bashing for banning the co-op mod and threatening them with legal action.

They sure do love their legal action.

PS. Titan Quest spears OP! Piercing damage OP. What was it. Hunter/dream to 1shot the final boss on hardest?

Instead of ending this with passive aggression, lets end it with some Titan Quest music from the secret area!
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August 24th, 2018, 11:33
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
If Bethsoft games didn't deserve bashing they wouldn't require so many mods to make them playable.
They also don't deserve to have things pointed out or even mentioned.
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August 24th, 2018, 11:59
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
They also don't deserve to have things pointed out or even mentioned.
I think to Dart an attack on bethsoft is an attack on stealth archery.

Enough mods to corrupt your game and exploitative gameplay of firing arrows from inaccessible rooftops is what Dart likes best.

I know because I must have read it over 10,000 times.

If he really liked all the things he says he likes he would have bought Monster Hunter: World instead of World of Warcraft.

The bow is excellent in MHW. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow you to bypass combat which is what matters most.

Otherwise, all the gameplay, story, immersion, exploration, progression, co-op, etc, is all there in droves.
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August 24th, 2018, 13:11
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post

I guess that means trivial matters like dual-wielding, light/sound-based stealth, physics-based archery, superior melee combat, mounts, distant terrain, dynamic ai, mounted combat, fully voiced NPCs, crafting, companions, and on and on - were all "streamlined" into their future games, right?
I don't understand your point to what @JDR13 said. You can streamline a game in someway and advance it in another ways. The point is, they could have done all of these and still kept spear as well and even better improved it. Now I don't personally care one way or another about spears but I am failing to see your point here
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