|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Cyberpunk 2077 - Interviews on Design

Default Cyberpunk 2077 - Interviews on Design

July 4th, 2018, 22:20
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I've been reading that snipped from news article at the beginning of this thread, and I sense something I don't quite like : People will want to look "cool" throughout this game. I bet there'll be myriabnds of character builds almost only relying on the "cool" stat. I mean, being "cool" is something desired in RL, like with gangsta rappers. Now, this "cool" stat might turn everyone into a gangsta rapper within that game, I think. There'll be little differfence, and those trying out something different will be called "uncool" in forums, a twist on the RL meaning of the word.

I can see it : Hordes of "badass looking" = "cool" characters …
Any "gangsta rapper" would probably have a good laugh about people who dress "cool" in this game.

From what little we know about the game, the "cool" stat is not about dressing the right way. We do not even know whether clothes raise the stat, or whether there are interactions between clothing and the stat.

Finally, if they have any kind of balance in the game, going all "cool" will probably mean that your character lacks other qualities.
Cacheperl is offline

Cacheperl

Keeper of the Watch

#81

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 883
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

July 4th, 2018, 22:29
It's not charisma. Pondsmith and ruleset explains it clearly…how you carry yourself, withstand mental ( and physical) pressure, how others automatically perceive you.

To put it simply:

Charisma: Dandelion
Cool: Snake Plissken
--
Rush in and die, dogs…I was a man before I was a king.
BoboTheMighty is offline

BoboTheMighty

BoboTheMighty's Avatar
SasqWatch

#82

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

July 4th, 2018, 22:33
Yeah, because cool people aren’t charismatic, right?

No one said it’s identical, but it’s still the CP version of the same thing. Like Charisma, it factors into combat and social interactions both.

It’s been a long time since I played the PnP game, but it’s definitely a stat with similar effects.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#83

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

July 4th, 2018, 22:38
Have to disagree. Snake is charismatic and Dandelion's coo!
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#84

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,952
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)

Default 

July 4th, 2018, 22:46
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Yeah, because cool people aren’t charismatic, right?

No one said it’s identical, but it’s still the CP version of the same thing.
Yes actually, cool people ( as described in the setting) can be very uncharismatic ( there are absolutely characters like this in the lore). Cool is more introverted, without effort, charisma is more "outward", being socially adept.

There are similarities with DnD charisma, but context is hugely different. If DnD had something similar it would be closer to mix of willpower/reputation.
--
Rush in and die, dogs…I was a man before I was a king.
BoboTheMighty is offline

BoboTheMighty

BoboTheMighty's Avatar
SasqWatch

#85

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

July 4th, 2018, 22:55
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
Yes actually, cool people ( as described in the setting) can be very uncharismatic ( there are absolutely characters like this in the lore). Cool is more introverted, without effort, charisma is more "outward", being socially adept.
That's an interesting notion. I've never met a cool person that wasn't charismatic.

In my opinion, cool is one kind of charisma. Snake, as you came up with as an example is extremely charismatic - in my opinion.

But we're arguing semantics.

As I said, I'm not saying Cool = Charisma. I'm saying it's a similar concept in terms of being a personality stat - but in a different system and obviously with different rules.

There are similarities with DnD charisma, but context is hugely different. If DnD had something similar it would be closer to mix of willpower/reputation.
If you think it's hugely different, then so be it. To me, it's the same kind of stat - but as I said, it's more elaborate - because it factors into certain things in combat in a more direct way.

Charisma affects the power of spells and such in D&D - which is a somewhat abstract way of handling it, and Cyberpunk doesn't have magic.

IIRC, Cyberpunk also had an "attractive" stat of some kind - like the old AD&D had "Comeliness".

Charisma was a partial replacement for Comeliness - so it's also about how attractive you are, to some degree.

But I've played so many PnP systems - and thousands of games.

To me, the differences get smaller the more I see similar patterns.

What I really care about is what CDPR does with this stat in terms of interesting choices and consequences.

I really couldn't care less what they call their personality stat - so long as it's relevant to the gameplay.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#86

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

July 5th, 2018, 15:19
Well, I interpreted the "cool factor" rather as something extrovert, like a look.
But yes, it is also said there it's something about "holding oneself together", too.
--
“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#87

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 18,108
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)

Default 

July 5th, 2018, 21:33
As a case study, please everyone watch the great movie "Be Cool".

I am joking.
Cacheperl is offline

Cacheperl

Keeper of the Watch

#88

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 883
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

July 5th, 2018, 21:36
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
As a case study, please everyone watch the great movie "Be Cool".

I am joking.
Hey, I liked that movie!

The prequel was better, though.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#89

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

July 5th, 2018, 21:39
Yeah, that's why I dislike it. I know, not a very original reason.
Cacheperl is offline

Cacheperl

Keeper of the Watch

#90

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 883
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

July 5th, 2018, 21:41
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Yeah, that's why I dislike it. I know, not a very original reason.
But how can you dislike this:

loading…


Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#91

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 02:20
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
That's an interesting notion. I've never met a cool person that wasn't charismatic.

In my opinion, cool is one kind of charisma. Snake, as you came up with as an example is extremely charismatic - in my opinion.

But we're arguing semantics.

As I said, I'm not saying Cool = Charisma. I'm saying it's a similar concept in terms of being a personality stat - but in a different system and obviously with different rules.



If you think it's hugely different, then so be it. To me, it's the same kind of stat - but as I said, it's more elaborate - because it factors into certain things in combat in a more direct way.

Charisma affects the power of spells and such in D&D - which is a somewhat abstract way of handling it, and Cyberpunk doesn't have magic.

IIRC, Cyberpunk also had an "attractive" stat of some kind - like the old AD&D had "Comeliness".

Charisma was a partial replacement for Comeliness - so it's also about how attractive you are, to some degree.

But I've played so many PnP systems - and thousands of games.

To me, the differences get smaller the more I see similar patterns.

What I really care about is what CDPR does with this stat in terms of interesting choices and consequences.

I really couldn't care less what they call their personality stat - so long as it's relevant to the gameplay.
That's certainly something that I don't think most would agree with. I think you're confusing/automatically equating strong personality with "charisma".
Former can be gained through isolation and hardship, and still be uncharismatic as fuck ( Zahratustra)
Or better example, character extremely similar to Plissken: John Rambo.

"High cool"? Absolutely. Goes to war with half the country, kicks their asses, never makes a mistake. But not exactly what you'd describe as "charismatic"..in fact, whole thing breaks out, because he unnerves everyone around him. Ask the sheriff here.

loading…


Plenty of characters from 2020, were inspired by these type of "80's anti-heroes", especially with solo's.

And DnD paladins are synonymous with charisma: leadership, inspiring, diplomacy/persuasion.

This is similar to how Intellect is split into Wisdom ( common sense, practical judgement) and Intelligence ( abstract, logical, etc). They have a common "base", but practical application can be very different. ( NWN was hilarious when playing as High WIS/Low INT character)
--
Rush in and die, dogs…I was a man before I was a king.
BoboTheMighty is offline

BoboTheMighty

BoboTheMighty's Avatar
SasqWatch

#92

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 08:14
@BoboTheMighty

I don't think you understand what I mean by a personality stat and what I mean when I repeat that I'm not saying Cool = Charisma.

For the third time - and for the sake of clarity: Yes, Bobo, we agree that the Cool stat is not identical to the Charisma stat.

If it makes you feel better, let's say it's more like Willpower - or that Empathy in CP2020 is more like Charisma.

All are still personality stats - and not physical stats, which is actually what I originally meant as a way to confer to Alrik the kind of thing it was supposed to be. Maybe I should have said "sort of like Charisma" instead of "Like Charisma, but more elaborate" - but I didn't predict a semantic discussion on this level for such a small oversight.

That said, Cool does share some aspects of Charisma - because it does impact how people respond to you based on, well, your charisma of being a "cool bad-ass" dude.

But that's just my perception, clearly.

As for our opinions of charisma as a general concept, that's interesting - but perhaps not appropriate to bog down this thread with.

I maintain that cool is one kind of charisma - and I happen to think 80s action heroes were highly charismatic. In fact, I'd argue that's a big reason they were so popular - and why people enjoyed their characters so much. As for Rambo, I'm not sure "cool" is the first word that comes to mind with him - but then again, he changed personality quite a bit throughout the movies. In the first movie, he was more like lost and desperate. In the following movies, you could argue he was cool - and I definitely think he had a strong charisma.

Maybe you're thinking of "pleasant" or "charming" - or something along those lines, which would be other kinds of charisma.

Usually, charisma is something that inspires people or draws them towards those who have it. Cool can definitely be something that inspires confidence or makes you want to be with someone.

In fact I'm confused why anyone would argue against that.

But, as I said, let's take it to another thread if you want to go on.

For my part, I'm absolutely fine with agreeing to disagree

What do you say?
Last edited by Darth Tagnan; July 6th, 2018 at 08:58.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#93

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 13:15
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
In the following movies, you could argue he was cool - and I definitely think he had a strong charisma.
Each to its own of course but while I could give Rambo many different epithets (like "neurotic", "unstable" or "unbalanced" for example), personally I certainly wouldn't call him "charismatic".
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken
zahratustra is offline

zahratustra

SasqWatch

#94

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,714
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 13:34
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Each to its own of course but while I could give Rambo many different epithets (like "neurotic", "unstable" or "unbalanced" for example), personally I certainly wouldn't call him "charismatic".
That's fair enough. Personally, I found him very appealing and almost charming in his quiet moments - when he was being protective of people, for instance. Like some of the scenes with the women he met.

I specifically remember a scene in First Blood - in one of the very first scenes, he had this charming way of talking about his friend before he's told he died of cancer.

Here, I found it:

loading…


To me, the way he's so warm and gentle as he's asking about his friend and talking about how big he is and so forth - is the very definition of charming and subtly charismatic.

I just want to give that man a hug, really.

He had a tender side and a very empathic side - that was obviously corrupted during his time in Vietnam.

But ok, if that's not charismatic in any way to others, that's fair enough.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#95

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 14:26
Oh I agree that on occasions he was a nice guy but, as series progressed, there was less and less of a nice guy and more and more of the neurotic one.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken
zahratustra is offline

zahratustra

SasqWatch

#96

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,714
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 14:34
Originally Posted by zahratustra View Post
Oh I agree that on occasions he was a nice guy but, as series progressed, there was less and less of a nice guy and more and more of the neurotic one.
You might well be right, I don't remember much of the last ones

Well, except that they were awful.
Darth Tagnan is offline

Darth Tagnan

Darth Tagnan's Avatar
SasqWatch

#97

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 15:30
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
That's certainly something that I don't think most would agree with. I think you're confusing/automatically equating strong personality with "charisma".
Former can be gained through isolation and hardship, and still be uncharismatic as fuck ( Zahratustra)
Einstein, maybe ? Or even Hawking ?
Just look at that "tongue picture" of Einstein - whereas psychologists have argued that this might be a child's reaction - an reaction that was typical for a child hundreds of years ago, but not today.
Or Dr. Emmet Brown.

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I maintain that cool is one kind of charisma - and I happen to think 80s action heroes were highly charismatic. In fact, I'd argue that's a big reason they were so popular - and why people enjoyed their characters so much.

The 80s TV series "Magnum" (which I even as a teenager called "Magnum The Magician") suddenly came to my memory - and the character of Higgins.
--
“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#98

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 18,108
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 15:30
I also see cool and charismatic overlapping. Not always of course but there is a definite synergy there, especially when considering that often times other people tend to like, respect, follow, or hold in some sense of awe the really cool people. They have a certain type of strong personality (i.e. force of personality, strength of character and will) that can influence others - which is part of charisma. Charisma isn't all about looking pretty/handsome or just being a great leader. Its about having a strong presence that in some way causes people to notice the person and influences others - and that can be introverted or extroverted. Introverted is often a more indirect influence while the extroverted is a more direct influence. They are not exactly the same but there is overlap between them.
--
Character is centrality, the impossibility of being displaced or overset. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgrimdark is offline

wolfgrimdark

wolfgrimdark's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#99

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)

Default 

July 6th, 2018, 16:01
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
@BoboTheMighty

I don't think you understand what I mean by a personality stat and what I mean when I repeat that I'm not saying Cool = Charisma.

For the third time - and for the sake of clarity: Yes, Bobo, we agree that the Cool stat is not identical to the Charisma stat.

If it makes you feel better, let's say it's more like Willpower - or that Empathy in CP2020 is more like Charisma.

All are still personality stats - and not physical stats, which is actually what I originally meant as a way to confer to Alrik the kind of thing it was supposed to be. Maybe I should have said "sort of like Charisma" instead of "Like Charisma, but more elaborate" - but I didn't predict a semantic discussion on this level for such a small oversight.

That said, Cool does share some aspects of Charisma - because it does impact how people respond to you based on, well, your charisma of being a "cool bad-ass" dude.

But that's just my perception, clearly.

As for our opinions of charisma as a general concept, that's interesting - but perhaps not appropriate to bog down this thread with.

I maintain that cool is one kind of charisma - and I happen to think 80s action heroes were highly charismatic. In fact, I'd argue that's a big reason they were so popular - and why people enjoyed their characters so much. As for Rambo, I'm not sure "cool" is the first word that comes to mind with him - but then again, he changed personality quite a bit throughout the movies. In the first movie, he was more like lost and desperate. In the following movies, you could argue he was cool - and I definitely think he had a strong charisma.

Maybe you're thinking of "pleasant" or "charming" - or something along those lines, which would be other kinds of charisma.

Usually, charisma is something that inspires people or draws them towards those who have it. Cool can definitely be something that inspires confidence or makes you want to be with someone.

In fact I'm confused why anyone would argue against that.

But, as I said, let's take it to another thread if you want to go on.

For my part, I'm absolutely fine with agreeing to disagree

What do you say?
That's common sense. RPG stats are approximation of char attributes, but the lines are more "blurred" with mental/personality aspect. And most people in real life are not so simply classified by them.
Like I said, Wisdom and Intelligence are perfect example here.

But in context of 2020/how it was inspired, there are more than subtle differences between the two.
Character with high charisma would break under torture, High Cool would completely shrug it off.
2020 as a setting was designed for these types of situations, that put the pressure on you, showing what's under the skin of your character.

From what I hear, there was one they clearly showed in the demo, typical, intense "Mexican stand-off", everyone holding gun at another, tempers flying and things quickly escalating out of control.

Pondsmith explains it clearly here:

"Most gun fights end because someone loses it and can't keep it together,” Pondsmith said, which he learned from speaking with a friend in the Rangers. “I wanted to get that sense of you project that you're together, you can keep it together.”

He went on to explain that “everything you've got is a statement,” and that while style is still important, how you carry yourself is too. “You’re wearing your big-ass armored jacket and you’re carrying your big-ass weapons, but it’s not just that. It’s that you looked badass doing it, and that people give you some respect on the street.”


I’m sure it won’t be long after release before we see an all Cool speedrun.

Pondsmith also said that Cool isn’t just the Cyberpunk version of the more traditional RPG stat Charisma. “You can have a tremendous amount of cool and have very little charisma,” Pondsmith explained. Basically, there’s a difference between talking your way out of situations and just throwing off a vibe that commands respect".


Funny thing is, I know quite a few people like this, amateur/and a few pro K1/MMA fighters.

Not the type most would describe as "charismatic", but you get a clear sense of more "quiet" confidence, "you don't to want to fuck with me", air around them.

Feodor is 10 on both Cool and Charisma though.
--
Rush in and die, dogs…I was a man before I was a king.
BoboTheMighty is offline

BoboTheMighty

BoboTheMighty's Avatar
SasqWatch

#100

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Cyberpunk 2077 - Interviews on Design
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:05.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch