The Elder Scrolls Online - New Screens

He said the social aspect and sheer scope and variety of the gameworld was a positive for MMOs. Not the stuff you posted.

ToddMcF2002 said:

On the other hand arguing that MMO's are teh suxxors because you're too cheap to pay into a game system that offers *thousands* of hours of evolving content is a pretty poor one.

Click to expand...

personally, if there had been an MMO in the past ten years with gorgeous storytelling, non-repetitive gameplay, little to no grinding, no player killing and focus on single-character play, I would have sunk every one of my many unspent dollars (well euros) into it; unspent because there were so few great single player games coming out in my favorite genre.

Are there still MMOs with PK? I don't get the grind comment. Crafting is a profession and professions require grinding at least to some extent. It is optional anyway. It seems as if Elderscrolls like other major MMO's are offering a significant single player experience.

There's significant grind in single player RPGs, too. Leveling up is a grind. Any crafting is a grind. Skyrim has those aspects but it gets a free pass because it's single player? I don't get it.

All I know is, LOTRO is like Skyrim on steroids. It has more content, bigger game world, social options, a real economy and great and expansive storytelling.

Sacred_Path said:

personally, if there had been an MMO in the past ten years with gorgeous storytelling, non-repetitive gameplay, little to no grinding, no player killing and focus on single-character play, I would have sunk every one of my many unspent dollars (well euros) into it; unspent because there were so few great single player games coming out in my favorite genre.

Click to expand...

Personally I thought Guild Wars 1 fitted all of those criteria in that you can play it just that way. And I started playing MMOs for just the reason you give - i.e. the industry stopped making decent single player RPGs.

I also agree with Fluent that LOTRO is a good game, that you can play solo if you want, but that the multiplayer aspects can add something too, if you are in the mood. Other players can also make the game feel less empty, even when you don't interact with them directly.

Very few MMOs allow player killing unless you choose a PvP server.

Roq said:

Very few MMOs allow player killing unless you choose a PvP server.

Click to expand...

Speaking of I hope TES:Online has dedicated PvP servers,if it doesn't or if PvP is bad I will probably skip it.

The PvP in Elder Scrolls Online is going to be the 3 faction PvP that takes place in Cyrodiil. There is no special server for it, you just have the option to travel to Cyrodiil and do it if you want to. Otherwise, just running around in the normal game world, I don't think there is any PvP going on there.

Nameless one said:

Speaking of I hope TES:Online has dedicated PvP servers,if it doesn't or if PvP is bad I will probably skip it.

Click to expand...

What Fluent said + If you like PvP I hope you have/will pledged on the Camelot Unchained Kickstarter . Mark Jacobs has a lot of balls making this kind of game and ... asking for nearly double the target amount of any previous game on Kickstarter, and I reckon if they get it they could make a really good RvR PvP game.

Fluent said:

Have you even played one? Try LOTRO and get back to me. The story in that game is outstanding.

.

Click to expand...

No idea how may quests exist for the single player in LOTR, but Skyrim has almost 500 quests.

As far as playing an MMOs, that last one I played was Ultima online (1). I played a bunch in the olden days but as I said earlier earlier, online gaming isn't something I can easily do at this point in my life.

So while LOTRO might be outstanding, I will not be getting back to you on that one.

Dajjer said:

As far as playing an MMOs, that last one I played was Ultima online (1). I played a bunch in the olden days but as I said earlier earlier, online gaming isn't something I can easily do at this point in my life.

Click to expand...

Hey, I've also played UO on and off for a few years (buying 30 days of game time). That game seems to have had a formative effect. All it ever did was bore me to tears.

We should also say that Skyrim is a very peculiar breed of single player RPG and not representative of the genre as a whole.

Dajjer said:

No idea how may quests exist for the single player in LOTR, but Skyrim has almost 500 quests.

As far as playing an MMOs, that last one I played was Ultima online (1). I played a bunch in the olden days but as I said earlier earlier, online gaming isn't something I can easily do at this point in my life.

So while LOTRO might be outstanding, I will not be getting back to you on that one.

Click to expand...

I heard Skyrim had closer to 300 quests, not 500.

There's over 350 quests alone in the Moria expansion, which is only a zone designed for 10 levels (levels 50-60). It also includes instances and skirmishes and other goodies. That's just one zone. Who knows how much total content the game has. A ridiculous amount, for sure. And it's just as quality as any single player content I've ever played.

That's what I mean when I say an MMO like LOTRO is on another level. In terms of scope and size and content, they can't be touched by 98% of single player games. And don't even get me started on the customization options in LOTRO. They are through the roof. You have many more ways to express yourself in an MMO then you do in a single player game.

I am a fan of SRPGs and MMOs even if currently more into SRPGs at the moment. Just a couple of observations. The main thing is that they are different beasts in many ways so there is ample room to enjoy both depending on what you like.

- First the social aspect is a two-edged sword. It can be really great playing in a world with real people behind the avatars. You have a much more alive and vibrant world and you can interact with others and share the experience which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand people can be major ass-hats which can be a pain to deal with. Also if you are trying to get immersed into the game all the OOC aspects get in the way. So while I agree with Fluent that the social aspect is a big plus I only agree to the point that it is with decent people. Sometimes you just want to get away from people and depending on the MMO that may or may not be easy to do.

- Second that there is a grind in SRPG's. There can be but nothing remotely like MMO's, although every new one that comes out seems to make leveling easier and faster … although to what end I don't know as people reach end game and then it is an even worse grind for lewt. Doing the same content over and over and over. In most SRPG's you do the content once per play through. You only kill the bosses once, not a few dozen times hoping for that purple weapon. MMO's tend to be repetitive by nature. The whole point is to keep people playing - if people play an MMO like an SRPG and then just leave … they aren't really making any money. So saying that both an SRPG and an MMO have grinds is like comparing a tabby cat to a Siberian tiger.

- Third, related to above, content is often repeated over and over. Some games are getting better about this but most MMO's certainly give you the option to repeat instances often. It isn't as immersive to slay the end-boss more than once. On the other hand an MMO does have more content than an SRPG - whether the quality of that content is better can depend. But I agree with Fluent on the size issue - some MMO's have some really good content and a lot of it. It can be diminished by other factors though - a lot depends on your play style. Also an MMO does have the money factor built in more than an SRPG.

I personally think story can be more focused and personal in an SRPG. That doesn't mean an MMO can't have story - I agree with Fluent that many MMO's have great stories. Some of the newer games give you a personal story line that is on par with many SRPG's IMO. However the illusion of you being the hero is a lot less in an MMO for me. It is just so much more obvious that there are thousands of people all waiting to do the same thing in an MMO. Like in GW2 seeing a huge crowd of people coming and going from your "personal" story instance. It is also harder to change the world your actions in an MMO - it in general has to be limited to the instances. On the other hand an MMO can be changed by massive team work which can be its own reward if you are into that social aspect (I usually am not).

MMO's also tend to have the appeal of dynamic change - content, updates, patches, all on a regular basis. It is more of a "live" world in that sense. I don't think an SRPG can match that aspect. For me an MMO wins on social and "live" aspects and SRPG wins on immersion, story, being the "main protagonist", and … well for being able to get away from people.

When I first got into MMO's I was pretty much like "this is the coolest thing ever" and didn't even want to play SRPGs for a long time. But eventually that wore off over many years and now I am back into SRPGs. It makes me wonder if this is Fluents first time playing an MMO, or at least a good one, as his reaction reminds me of that "first time" experience.

Plus, as others have mentioned, SRPGs are really nice when you lead a busy life and often just want to be in your own little world with complete control over things.

EDIT: Thought of one other thing for this TL;DR ... I was thinking of why I might prefer Skyrim or DAO over WoW or Secret World and its pretty much the focus and lack of people for me. Sometimes I want company and the social aspects of an online world that has a sense of permanency to it. But other times I dislike knowing I am just another peasant in an MMO. I will never even remotely have the best gear, the most kills, see all the top content (which often has the best story aspects), or being in any of even the top 1000 lists of whatever. But in an SRPG I can be - its my world for the most part. Toss in modding and I get even more. I get to be just another Joe in real life. Sometimes in games I want to be something more than that. In an MMO it is all to easy to be reminded of all the other "elite" players running around.

One thing I like about MMOs is that you can't save and reload the game, so the consequences of your actions matter more. Of course you can make a decision not to do that in single player games too, but generally they aren't designed to make that feasible.

It's noticeable is that the main objections against MMOs here are for the most part avoidable - you are free to play them the way that you want, you don't *have* to grind you don't have to succumb to social pressure, just turn off chat and do your own thing; imagine the other guys are NPCs etc.

LOTRO is not my first MMO, but it's my first in a long while. Last one I played was Asheron's Call back when it was brand new. I adored that game as well and thought it was the most amazing gaming experience I had had to that point.

I don't know. As I said, I'm just as immersed in LOTRO as I would be in any single player RPG. Even if there are a bunch of other people running around, and nothing I do in the world is permanent, I can look past that and still stay immersed. And the exposition of the lore is just fantastic. There's so much meat on the bone, as it were.

Also, if you don't want to repeat content in MMOs, then don't. I'm level 47 in LOTRO, played well over 200 hours already and have only repeated content a handful of times, by my own choice. You can put in over 200 hours and not repeat any content, period, if you don't want to.

The grind factor. Again, it's completely optional. There is an option to grind and you're free to grind to your heart's content for hours if that's what you want to do. But if you just want to play the game without grinding, it's very possible to do that too.

I don't know. I think a lot of these things you guys mention are misconceptions about MMOs quite frankly. The MMOs I've played have been like single player games except on steroids, with social aspects sprinkled in. Even the week long trial I played of WoW functioned in this manner. It just seemed like a very involved and huge single player game with other people running around in the game world.

I checked, but did not see the leaked(by a tester playing ESO) gameplay footage posted here...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz042v_the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-gameplay-footage_videogames

I started watching it but it vanished and now the link doesn't. Lead to the video? What I did see really was incredibly lacking quite frankly. The graphics were a huge throwback and the interface lacked polish.

ToddMcF2002 said:

I started watching it but it vanished and now the link doesn't. Lead to the video? What I did see really was incredibly lacking quite frankly. The graphics were a huge throwback and the interface lacked polish.

Click to expand...

I guess it was removed already(Zenimax lawyers even work on Sundays!), still it's been released into the wild wild internet so I'm sure others will reupload it.

I found the video itself posted in a PCgamer article here. It had ~75k views when I spotted it… I can't comment on it I'm not really into MMOs so I didn't even watch the footage ><. But the reactions to the footage, from the people who are into MMOs is generally - Bad animations, dated gfx, Generic MMO, bland dialogue, ect ect. -EDIT- The reaction I speak of is from the article's comment section and from a thread in an overclocking forum I frequent(where I first stumbled across the PCG article).

Just to clarify these are notmisconceptions on my part by any means. I played EQ1 for 4 years, DAoC for 3, WoW for 6, RIFT for a year plus … and tons of other MMO's off an on including Age of Conan, Ashersons Call, LOTR, EQ2, The Secret World and SW:TOR to name a few. As far as it goes I am an MMO vet as much as I am an SRPG vet. I know exactly what I am talking about in so far as my own feelings on the subject. I have a solid understanding of how they work, have done a couple of research papers on the social and role playing aspects of MMO's, and have played them long enough, and enough of them, to have a good feel for many of the different styles and mechanics involved.

EDIT: Replacing with a short version. I like MMO's as much as I do SRPGS but I also know a lot of aspects on what appeals to people have to do with some key differences tied into money, social aspects, grinding (which does exist especially if you want to get into raiding and doing elite instances), online requirements, busy schedules, and numerous other things. It is way over-simplifying to just say "well ignore everyone in the game and just pretend its an SRPG". There are simply differences created when designing a game around thousands (even millions) of people all playing the same game together, doing the same content, and having the goal of keeping people playing it for as long as possible as that is how they make money (or the goal of trying to get people to want to make a lot of micro-transactions).

But you're talking about end game grinding, which has no comparison at all to single player games because single player games end. MMOs by their nature, do not end if you don't want them to, you can grind endlessly and repeat content for better loot or whatever. How is that a bad thing? If we're going to compare single player RPGs to MMOs, you can't say "well all MMOs are grind heavy". Of course the end game is grind heavy. They can't make unlimited content forever.

So I don't see the statement that MMOs are heavy on grinding as being meaningful, unless you are going to say that single player games are heavy on grinding as well. Because let's face it, RPGs are a grind by their very definition. You grind to level up, you grind to get better gear, etc. It's just if you enjoy the grind it doesn't seem like work, and that's what matters.

It's not hard to say "ignore the other people and play it like a single player game" for most of the content in a game like LOTRO. But okay, according to you that over-simplifying. Whatever you say, man.

MasterKromm said:

I guess it was removed already(Zenimax lawyers even work on Sundays!), still it's been released into the wild wild internet so I'm sure others will reupload it.

I found the video itself posted in a PCgamer article here. It had ~75k views when I spotted it… I can't comment on it I'm not really into MMOs so I didn't even watch the footage ><. But the reactions to the footage, from the people who are into MMOs is generally - Bad animations, dated gfx, Generic MMO, bland dialogue, ect ect. -EDIT- The reaction I speak of is from the article's comment section and from a thread in an overclocking forum I frequent(where I first stumbled across the PCG article).

Click to expand...

It's strange because the official gameplay videos are pretty impressive. I'm certainly not going to count it out but now I'm wary. I'll wait for reviews.