Gothic 3 - Final Community Patch Released!

Burress · March 25, 2009

Has anybody here liberated a town yet? I am beginning to think, at least with a melee path character, liberating even Cape Dunn is not feasible until fairly late in the game. I am currently level 25, light hashishin armor, worn skull shield, self-forged bastard sword, helm of the paladin, 3 pieces armor jewelry, ~500 hitpoints, 200 + strength sword master- and Cape Dunn is not even close to a feasible fight. There is just doesn't seem to be a way to avoid being hit with double-teams on medium, and my current armor situation doesn't suck up enough damage to ride it out anyway. The AI's blocking is where I am getting beat, the guy I am focusing on goes to block mode and his pal beats up on me. Its not easy for me to switch focuses quickly.

On the other hand, a mage character seems to have become significantly stronger with the way they have redone the heavy hitter spells. I thought mage characters were in general too easy before (except liberating towns was a giant pain), so I went melee this time. I think all around, its going to be a lot harder route for me. Has anybody else got further in to the game to comment?

VPeric · March 25, 2009

Pladio said:
It stutters a bit too much for me especially during fights or when I want/need to turn around ... Also in the bigger cities...

Of course, you'll probably want everything at low and a nice defragmentation will definitely help. I don't really remember any major stuttering, though there was certainly some. In the end, I guess everyone has their own threshold.

Pladio · March 25, 2009

Yeah, I guess I can try it on someone else's computer maybe to see.

JDR13 · March 25, 2009

What I want to know is....does stronger armor finally make a difference now?

One of the biggest disappointments for me was how armor in Gothic 3 seemed to offer almost no protection against actual damage, especially against beasts.

@Burress. You've played that far already in just 3 days?!

Zaleukos · March 25, 2009

JDR13 said:
What I want to know is....does stronger armor finally make a difference now?

One of the biggest disappointments for me was how armor in Gothic 3 seemed to offer almost no protection against actual damage, especially against beasts.

I tested that and armour inefficiency seems to be an urban legend. Going from no armour to the cheapest rebel armour halved damage at least against wolves and scavengers in 1.2 and 1.6... The release version (1.08?) had broken armour against wildlife though, and that is how the rumour started.

Exactly how armour works wasnt very transparent though... In the previous Gothics it seemed to more or less act as a straight subtraction from damage (with successful attacks always doing a minimum amount of damage even against superstrong armour, hence you could kill a troll with a stick and patience), but G3 armour isnt nearly as straightforward. I didnt have the time nor the inclanation to test it further after observing that it had some effect

VPeric · March 25, 2009

^ Apparently, armor used to be a percentage, while the new community patch changes it to an absolute amount like the previous Gothics. Still, even if your armor is above the damage the enemy can do, there's still a small chance you'll get damaged (balance, I suppose).

Zaleukos · March 25, 2009

VPeric said:
^ Apparently, armor used to be a percentage, while the new community patch changes it to an absolute amount like the previous Gothics. Still, even if your armor is above the damage the enemy can do, there's still a small chance you'll get damaged (balance, I suppose).

Yep, and I think the scaling of that percentage was so out of whack with the displayed armour values. If a 10-10-5 armour halves damage and you still take significant damage while wearing 100-100-100 armour it is quite understandable that it gave people the idea that armour made zilch difference... I have mixed feelings about "absolute protection", on one end it makes more sense for armour to absorb a certain amount of violence, on the other it creates threshold effects that make some weapons and enemies useless (which is realistic but can be bad for gameplay). I remember how an extra 5-10 points of armour in early game G1 made the difference between wimpy and untouchable

It will be interesting to try the patch the coming weekend. I'm both hopeful and worried (the latter about how the new balancing will affect town liberation). It is mainly the new balance that makes a replay meaningful since I've seen almost every quest and location already in my too numerous playthroughs

Prime Junta · March 25, 2009

Zaleukos said:
It will be interesting to try the patch the coming weekend. I'm both hopeful and worried (the latter about how the new balancing will affect town liberation). It is mainly the new balance that makes a replay meaningful since I've seen almost every quest and location already in my too numerous playthroughs

I can answer that: "Dramatically." Basically, forget about liberating cities until you're very tough. IMO that's *good,* because previously the game sort of steered you to liberate cities very early on. On my first play-through, I liberated cities as I discovered them, and of course consequently ran into something of a brick wall when the orcs started to attack me on sight.

JDR13 · March 25, 2009

Zaleukos said:
I tested that and armour inefficiency seems to be an urban legend. Going from no armour to the cheapest rebel armour halved damage at least against wolves and scavengers in 1.2 and 1.6... The release version (1.08?) had broken armour against wildlife though, and that is how the rumour started.

It was no urban legend, and the cheapest rebel armor certainly did not halve the damage from wolves, definitely not in 1.2 anyways.

Zaleukos · March 25, 2009

JDR13 said:
It was no urban legend, and the cheapest rebel armor certainly did not halve the damage from wolves, definitely not in 1.2 anyways.

I cant really vouch for 1.2, but for 1.6 (and I dont think there was any mention of damage in the changelog, except the vaguely related reduction fo stunlock) I gathered hard data and even posted it here long ago:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3173

So I stick with my urban legend assessment. As said I suspect the impression that armour makes no difference stems from the fact that the difference between the worst and best armour in performance is small compared to in other games, and that this difference is much smaller than what the armour numbers indicate, and that the dynamic ranges for hit points, damage, and protection are much smaller than in many other games. Armour doesnt seem to affect enemy hit rates either (unlike in TES where it impacts both hit rate and damage and thus has a "double effect"). That damage effects act within such a narrow range makes it hard to see subtle differences. Pretty basic maths...

JDR13 · March 25, 2009

I never said it made no difference, it just seemed like it was far too small of one.
The problem is that most of the armors in Gothic 3 are just very unrealistic in the protection they offer. When you're finally wearing heavy rebel armor, a wolf or boar shouldn't still be doing significant damage.

It also has to do with the fact that many of us were accustomed to the way it worked in Gothic 1&2, and it worked well. Armor was very expensive, and took a long time to save up for, but each upgrade made a much more noticeable difference.

Zaleukos · March 25, 2009

Ok, then I agree with you. I guess I took "finally make a difference" and "did not halve the damage" more literally than you intended

Straight additive armour systems like in G1/G2 works due to the chapter design. The enemies that you have to fight (unless playing Wulf-style) if you follow the main thread are balanced to fit the damage reduction of the armours available in the current chapter. If your armour lags say three chapters behind (a very unlikely situation) you'd probably not note that much of an improvement going to one that is two chapters behind, and actually get an "experience" similar to in G3 in its level of frustration... But as these games were tightly tuned you got the upgrades at just the right time to feel a difference.

At any rate I think both Gothic systems are better than the AD&D system. Armour reducing damage means that every point counts and the thresholding effects are less problematic than in a system where armour just affects the chance to hit (vanilla leather armour really make NO difference in Baldurs Gate et al unless you are up against kobolds).

JDR13 · March 25, 2009

Zaleukos said:
Ok, then I agree with you. I guess I took "finally make a difference" and "did not halve the damage" more literally than you intended

One of the biggest disappointments for me was how armor in Gothic 3 seemed to offer almost no protection against actual damage, especially against beasts.

Zaleukos said:
At any rate I think both Gothic systems are better than the AD&D system. Armour reducing damage means that every point counts and the thresholding effects are less problematic than in a system where armour just affects the chance to hit (vanilla leather armour really make NO difference in Baldurs Gate et al unless you are up against kobolds).

I think each one worked well in the context of the games they were used in, although I admit the AD&D system takes some getting used to. I think a combination of both effects would be preferable.

DarNoor · March 26, 2009

I am downloading the patch now, but i have a question. Is this the only patch i need? I am reinstalling G3 after the patch downloads. Does this patch include other patches that were made by PB? Thanks.

VPeric · March 26, 2009

DarNoor said:
I am downloading the patch now, but i have a question. Is this the only patch i need? I am reinstalling G3 after the patch downloads. Does this patch include other patches that were made by PB? Thanks.

Yes, it includes all previous patches, and removes the copy protection too.

northreign · March 26, 2009

Burress said:
Has anybody here liberated a town yet? I am beginning to think, at least with a melee path character, liberating even Cape Dunn is not feasible until fairly late in the game.

Not true.

I liberated it my 1st time through the game as soon as I had completed everything necessary to see the orc leader.

What I did was enter, talk, then went for it. Take the leader down and use the doorway as a bottleneck point. Save often and reload when needed.

However, not doing it like that would probably be quite hard if not impossible early on.

northreign · March 26, 2009

Might add was just about to again but not sure if I want to play the same way again or help the orcs this time so left cape dunn and currently traveling, hunting, and finding treasure.

skavenhorde · March 26, 2009

Has anyone tried staff weapons yet? Have they been improved at all?

Maylander · March 26, 2009

I have a question: Has anything changed regarding 2H swords? Are halberds the only real options as far as 2H weapons go? In G3 vanilla, 2H swords had so short range they gave no advantage whatsoever over using 1H + shield (or DW), but halberds were completely overpowered due to their massive range.

Also, I've heard regular melee fighting is better now, but what about dual-wielding?

Ergonpandilus · March 26, 2009

I've been using 2-h weapons and it seems that halberd and twohander have almost equal range. Atleast I felt twohander much better because higher damage in new combat system.

Gothic 3 - Final Community Patch Released!

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