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September 25th, 2019, 20:38
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Go right ahead… would enjoy seeing the list.
I only have a few, in case it's of interest. In this scenario, I am assuming 'short' means less than 30 hours of gameplay for finishing the game once (which might not account for seeing all endings or paths):
- Gothic 1
- Age of Decadence (I have played the game for over 100 hours, but that's because I have tried playing through many paths)
- Expeditions: Conquistador
- ICY
- Mass Effect 1
- Shadowrun Returns & Hong Kong


Some RPG-lites (in my opinion):
- BattleTech
- Mutant Year Zero
- Ash of Gods
- Banner Saga (even as a trilogy, each of the games lasted ~10 hours for me)
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September 25th, 2019, 20:43
Thanks for your list Pladio, it was enjoyable to read. However, you weren't 'making an issue' out of game length traditions, so I have no idea if you're helping your own cause or not… And I shall refrain from commenting on your list of games as a result, because you likely weren't listing those games from the perspective of a wider notion of quality versus quantity, yes?
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September 25th, 2019, 21:06
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Go right ahead… would enjoy seeing the list.
Sure… I'll go with the 30 hours benchmark too… here are games I finish below (or very close) to that mark:

- Expeditions: Viking
- Shadowrun Returns & Hong Kong
- Mass Effect Andromeda
- Elex
- Mutant Year Zero
- Banner Saga
- West of Loathing

And a few of my all-time favourites:

- Fallout 1
- Final Tantasy Tactics
- Knights of the Old Republic

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
And there's the reason I keep questioning these kind of posts. You start off by saying there's a problem, and then it turns out there isn't a problem, at least not with the genre and the genre's routines, but instead a problem with you and how you approach a game via your own personal situation and tastes. Your post details why you personally have come to prefer shorter games, but your post doesn't say why it's a problem generally, which, if it is just a you thing then it's not a problem and I have no idea why 'so many' people like to phrase the topic in such a damaging way.

And I wouldn't bother making a counter-issue out of these posts if it wasn't something I could see as a growing problem in the forum communities.
I think your original post on this topic is the unclear one that contradicts itself. You started by saying "I've never associated length to quality" and then ended it by saying "Make 'short games' en-vogue… make the RPG genre poorer, inherently".

So, which is it?

What I take issue with is the idea that an RPG can't be amazing if its short. That's a ludicrous notion. You can roll your eyes again if you'd like or state some reasons why you think otherwise.
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September 25th, 2019, 21:11
Fallout 1 wasn't so much bigger than 30 hours and it was able to be the best CRPG of the 90s (at least for me, obviously, it's my favorite game). I take quality over quantity any day. Quality and quantity at the same time (The Witcher 3, for instance), however, are even better.
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September 25th, 2019, 21:34
Originally Posted by SSIGuy View Post
Sure… I'll go with the 30 hours benchmark too… here are games I finish below (or very close) to that mark:

And a few of my all-time favourites:

- Fallout 1
- Final Tantasy Tactics
- Knights of the Old Republic
Final Fantasy Tactics in 30 hours wow I have completed Final Fantasy Tactics 3 times and not once was under 50 hours, you are some very fast player.

I also realized that I did not enjoy as much the fastest finishing of the game as when I was playing slower when I was trying to get everything the game has to offer. ;-)
Last edited by Ryzwitcher; September 25th, 2019 at 21:44.
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September 25th, 2019, 21:49
Originally Posted by Ryzwitcher View Post
Final Fantasy Tactics in 30 hours wow I have completed Final Fantasy Tactics 3 times and not once was under 50 hours, you are some very fast player.

I also realized that I did not enjoy as much the fastest finishing of the game as when I was playing slower when I was trying to get everything the game has to offer. ;-)
Well, I will say that figure is the last time I played it (I've played it 3 times too), so it is likely it took longer the first time way back when I played it on a PS1.
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September 25th, 2019, 21:57
Mass Effect: Andromeda? Did you literally skip every single bit of side content?

*Edit* I just noticed you listed Elex as well. Same question.
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September 25th, 2019, 22:11
Originally Posted by SSIGuy View Post
Sure… I'll go with the 30 hours benchmark too… here are games I finish below (or very close) to that mark:

- Expeditions: Viking
- Shadowrun Returns & Hong Kong
- Mass Effect Andromeda
- Elex
- Mutant Year Zero
- Banner Saga
- West of Loathing

And a few of my all-time favourites:

- Fallout 1
- Final Tantasy Tactics
- Knights of the Old Republic



I think your original post on this topic is the unclear one that contradicts itself. You started by saying "I've never associated length to quality" and then ended it by saying "Make 'short games' en-vogue… make the RPG genre poorer, inherently".

So, which is it?

What I take issue with is the idea that an RPG can't be amazing if its short. That's a ludicrous notion. You can roll your eyes again if you'd like or state some reasons why you think otherwise.
Ok, so I've clearly failed to communicate what I was saying in a way that you could understand, so I'll clarify this aspect before moving onto your game choices.

Firstly, where I say I've never associated quality with length it means I've never been informed of a game's length and immediately made a mental image in my head as to whether that means I will or wont like the game. That information has no baring on quality in my mind.

However, if a game is advertised as 20 hours or under, it does necessitate a mental note as to whether the product is going to be a fully fledged RPG.

Secondly, regards how long is a piece of string, you've now kindly clarified 30 hours [thanks Pladio ] , which is, handily for you, the exact amount of hours people normally expect an RPG to be at it's minimum. When people refer to 'short' in regards to RPGs they normally mean 20 hours and under, because those are the real outliers, traditionally. 30 hours is not short.

So when I said that promoting short games as the new en-vogue as being damaging to the genre I do not mean that it reduces quality, I mean that it reduces the chance of getting a fully fledged RPG.

I shall now use the games you listed as proof of what I have just said:

[stats taken from the website How Long To Beat]

Expeditions Viking:
28 hrs. (bee-line main quest)
32 hrs. (+ side quests)
50 hrs. (completionist)

Shadowrun Hong Kong:
20.5 hrs. (m)
28.5 hrs. (s)
43.5 hrs. (c)

Mass Effect: Andromeda:
18.5 hrs. (m)
64 hrs. (s)
92.5 hrs. (c)

Elex:
27 hrs. (m)
48.5 hrs. (s)
72 hrs. (c)

Fallout:
16.5 hrs. (m)
22.5 hrs. (s)
32 hrs. (c)

FF Tactics
39 hrs. (m)
59 hrs. (s)
93 hrs. (c)

KOTOR:
29 hrs. (m)
35.5 hrs. (s)
46.5 hrs. (c)

And in each case for the above games the game was not designed to be short. Making a short game was not the intention of the developer. The games can be played quickly, but they are not designed to be. They are all designed to be long games. Dare I even say that if someone plays only for bee-lining the main quest then that person is not an RPG aficionado, that person is someone who likes to play games and sometimes likes to play RPGs. To always play RPGs as main-quest bee-line games is to not play RPGs.

As for the other games on your list:

Shadowrun Returns: Was not a complete game when it was released. It later had the Dead Man's Switch content added to it and even then the developers only considered it a proof of concept for better things to come. It was not considered a full RPG.

Banner Saga: Is an episodic series where a full RPG is released slowly over time in many parts. While each part can be played in a 10 or so hours if you rush it, when factoring in the entire narrative intent over the trilogy it's well over 30 hours for the 'complete game'.

West of Loathing: Is a fun little cheap game. There are many fun little cheap games available in the marketplace.

I do not believe West of Loathing and Mutant Year Zero by themselves act as evidence that RPGs would achieve better quality by providing less quantity.

Also For Your Information:

Skyrim:
33 hrs. (m)
108 hrs. (s)
225 hrs. (c)

By your above definition, Skyrim is a short game.
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September 27th, 2019, 06:44
Originally Posted by GabrielMP_19 View Post
Fallout 1 wasn't so much bigger than 30 hours and it was able to be the best CRPG of the 90s (at least for me, obviously, it's my favorite game). I take quality over quantity any day. Quality and quantity at the same time (The Witcher 3, for instance), however, are even better.
This comment wins the Internet. Short games for me, though. I prefer variety since there are so many games vying for my time.
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September 27th, 2019, 08:12
Originally Posted by Void000 View Post
This comment wins the Internet. Short games for me, though. I prefer variety since there are so many games vying for my time.
Oh really… sooooo… you are saying that you do in fact prefer quantity over quality, yes?
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September 27th, 2019, 14:54
DE will deliver quantity, and quality in spades. Or I'll eat my shorts.
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October 3rd, 2019, 02:09
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Oh really… sooooo… you are saying that you do in fact prefer quantity over quality, yes?
Quality over quantity. Most sandbox games are a mile wide and an inch deep. For instance, "arrow to the knee" actually became a meme.
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October 3rd, 2019, 19:47
Unless I'm mistaken this gameplay video is very recent. At least I haven't seen it anywhere else. So, enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxYJyMFjbao
loading…


Man, this game just oozes originality. I'm getting serious Planescape Torment/Torment Tides of Numenera vibes with it.
Last edited by danutz_plusplus; October 3rd, 2019 at 20:00.
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October 3rd, 2019, 23:51
I have a preview copy but I don't want to spoil the main game. Played for a few minutes and it oozes quality. The character creation is very polished. Rather than making dread paragraphs for each of the skills and attributes, you get one sentence, maybe 2 tops. Makes it very pleasant to read the plethora of skill descriptions when creating your character. The intro is also lovely and shows a high degree of polish and creativity. Very good so far.
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October 5th, 2019, 22:14
This game is amazing. One of the best I've ever played. The writing is sublime and the reactivity and choice and consequence gameplay and dialogue are the best I've ever seen in the genre. It's really good.
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October 6th, 2019, 19:45
My eyes bleed reading this thread….length is not so much an effect on how good a game is, pacing is.
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