PS5 New Unreal Tech - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » PS5 New Unreal Tech

Default PS5 New Unreal Tech

May 13th, 2020, 17:44
loading…


What I find interesting about this Nanite technology is the potential time saved by artists - which could be quite substantial.

Pretty neat, imo.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#1

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 18:10
https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/b…nreal-engine-5

Without the awful YT compression

It does look good, I must say.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#2

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 18:25
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
What I find interesting about this Nanite technology is the potential time saved by artists - which could be quite substantial.
Yeah, that's the real leap here, if it delivers. With the current Unreal engine, you could already achieve something similar using RTX GI and so on, but it would be an epic amount of work and hand tweaking. To be able to bring in any amount of geometry, at the highest level of texture, and let the engine sort out how to reduce it efficiently, would be revolutionary. It almost sounds too good to be true.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#3

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 18:36
Yes, one is always a little sceptical about things like these.

That said, most tech demos I've seen are running on super high-end PCs with insane GPUs.

This is running on a PS5 - and was supposed to be playable at a cancelled event.

So, seems legit.

Not having to mess around with optimization or LODs would, indeed, be a gigantic timesaver.

Coupled with the PS5 SSD, which is also supposed to be ridiculously fast - I'm feeling good about my intention to get one

GlimpseDart

Guest

#4

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 18:45
Yes, it's very interesting if the PS5 can handle realtime GI as standard. That would be another massive boon for artists, not having to muck around baking light maps and tweaking fake lighting.

Presumably they've found some massive efficiencies in software, as I can't imagine PS5 has all that much raw horsepower.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#5

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 19:00
I don't know how they did it, but my guess is it's more about clever code and a heavy emphasis on the fast translation of information, than strictly the power of the hardware.

Supposedly this will work on other platforms as well, so I don't think the PS5 hardware is exclusive in terms of capacity. Not for long, anyway.

So, yeah, efficient software seems the bigger factor here.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#6

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 19:16
I'm curious where this Nanite process is taking place. I can't see that it could be doing the decimation of billions of triangles of geometry in realtime - that would seem to require more processing power than just rendering them in full. Presumably it's some very CPU intensive process that the devs run in the engine when they finalise a scene, which produces data to be shipped with the game.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#7

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 19:19
Based on the demo, it's happening in real-time - as they kept going on and on about billions of triangles being processed in various scenes.

Some kind of clever optimized reduction of unnecessary triangles, it seems. Maybe using some part of the hardware in unfamiliar ways.

I seem to remember having a similar reaction when MP3 first came around and managed to decompress/decode what used to be ten times the size of audio data - in real-time.

But I'm not THAT tech-savvy - so your guess is as good as mine.

But there's no denying the end result seems pretty convincing

GlimpseDart

Guest

#8

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 19:26
Yeah, I just can't conceive of how that would work. In order to do the decimation of the triangle count, you first have to process the full amount in the model, and then run some process to reduce them without visible loss of quality - which is actually more processing work than just rendering them would be. So, I'm guessing that it is a bit like compression, in that the computationally intensive bit has to take place ahead of time, and then ships something the client can handle.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#9

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 19:53
Well, it would be surprising if we could figure it all out based on so little information

I mean, this is one of the most established engines - and I assume they have top-tier engineers working their magic on it.

Probably not that complicated once you know the trick, though.

We'll get more information eventually, I'm sure.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#10

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 20:28
Sure, I'm just thinking out loud. I've been using Unreal for a couple of years now, and I'm just thinking about it in terms of the principles I understand. I get how renderers work, and doing this in realtime just seems like a free lunch, as it were. Perhaps they'll surprise me.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#11

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 20:40
I honestly don't have much of a clue.

Perhaps they've figured out a way to recognize key/common shapes without having to process all triangles - and they might aggressively or roughly cut away the fat and create an optimized mesh/shape, doing the more precise work once the superfluous data is removed (potentially with later limited source-validation to smooth it out), which might be cheaper than we suspect.

They also seem to be talking about some kind of fancy texturing process - which is probably also cheaper than usual.

But I'm just shooting in the dark here.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#12

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 13th, 2020, 21:09
https://www.pcgamer.com/unreal-engine-5-tech-demo/
Would this demo run on my PC with a RTX 2070 Super? Yes, according to Libreri, and I should get "pretty good" performance. For comparison, the PlayStation 5 GPU the demo video was captured on achieves 10.28 teraflops, while the RTX 2070 Super hits just over 9 teraflops. (Note that teraflops are not everything.)

Regarding loading and streaming, though, Sweeney says that the PlayStation 5's SSD architecture is "god-tier" and "pretty far ahead of PCs," but that you should still get "awesome performance" with an NVMe SSD, which I'm using. One thing is for sure: If you haven't already, it's time to ditch HDDs, which Sweeney doesn't expect anyone to load games from in the near future.
Whatta load of hot water discovery than spitting on it's previous inventors bullshit.

Why are people forgetting history where watch dogs 1 disabled features on PC (which were later unlocked with mods) because consoles are trash?

Also:
--
Toka Koka
Last edited by joxer; May 13th, 2020 at 21:30.
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#13

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,331
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 10:47
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
Perhaps they've figured out a way to recognize key/common shapes without having to process all triangles - and they might aggressively or roughly cut away the fat and create an optimized mesh/shape, doing the more precise work once the superfluous data is removed (potentially with later limited source-validation to smooth it out), which might be cheaper than we suspect.
Yes, that's the only way I can imagine this being feasible in realtime - rather than actually recalculating the geometry of the model, having some fast way of approximating the visible surface. That really would be a completely new kind of rendering, and pretty revolutionary for graphics workflows.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#14

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 11:07
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Yes, that's the only way I can imagine this being feasible in realtime - rather than actually recalculating the geometry of the model, having some fast way of approximating the visible surface. That really would be a completely new kind of rendering, and pretty revolutionary for graphics workflows.
Yes, I'm curious to hear details.

That said, at this point, I'm still a little sceptical and wonder if this isn't a partial marketing stunt.

As far as I can tell, Epic and Sony have a close relationship right now - and all the talk of revolution is not exactly something we've never heard before.

Even so, it does seem like one of the most promising developments in terms of tech advances that I've heard about recently.

Coupled with the PS5 custom SSD setup - which they're promoting as impossible for any other platform to achieve (I think I read somewhere that it's supposed to be 100-150 times faster than a regular PS5 HDD - essentially nullifying load times) - there's a ton of potential here.

But, in the end, it all comes down to the games themselves.

I wonder how much space these fancy new visuals will take up. I mean, the texture footprint should be lower without normal maps and what not - and even with billion-triangle meshes - that's a pretty low amount of memory/space required.

Because they need to get a handle on the massive footprints.

AFAIK, the SSD is going to be something like 850GB - which is a joke when you consider games like RDR2 that take up more than 100GB by themselves.

Anyway, exciting times.

Of course, being an amateur Unity developer - this all seems like something I'll never personally use for my games - but as a gamer it's way cool if true.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#15

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 11:15
If we assume that it is actually something of practical use, I think it would work its way down to where hobbyists would end up using it, too. It would save so much time and effort, that assets and workflows would likely change to adopt it.

But, I'm skeptical, too. They may have this running on a PS5, but I suspect it's still a very expensive way of doing things. My guess would be this might be something for the future, but probably not a common choice for games in the upcoming generation. I'd be surprised if the standard methods are replaced quickly.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#16

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 12:19
If it works, I'd expect PS5 exclusives to focus on that way of doing it for all the Unreal engine games - almost right away. Maybe some of the ones earlier in development might benefit from porting their work - as the assets are probably engine-neutral for the most part.

If I was a professional developer or publisher - I'd certainly want to take advantage of not having to optimize or fiddle with secondary/LOD assets. If you can truly import work straight into the engine - and have that do the optimization on-the-fly - then I don't see any reason not to go that way ASAP.

Of course, for the non-exclusives - it would have to be doable on the XBSX and PC as well - which is another matter. Still, Unreal has always been rather platform neutral - so I don't see why not.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#17

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 12:34
I think the reason not to do it is that it could just be very hard to get decent performance with it. Apparently it's running at 30fps with adaptive resolution, and that's in the ideal tech demo with nothing else going on. It may be that in practice, devs can get better overall results out of the hardware by doing it the standard way. Quite often we see tech demos of features that aren't really practical for real world use, as a marketing tool. A good way of getting some attention for Unreal and Sony, as you say. All speculation of course, and we'll see.

They've said there's nothing special about the PS5 making this possible - it can be implemented on PC and Xbox, so hopefully we'll get to see it at some point.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Last edited by Ripper; May 14th, 2020 at 12:50.
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#18

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 13:02
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I think the reason not to do it is that it could just be very hard to get decent performance with it. Apparently it's running at 30fps with adaptive resolution, and that's in the ideal tech demo with nothing else going on. It may be that in practice, devs can get better overall results out of the hardware by doing it the standard way. Quite often we see tech demos of features that aren't really practical for real world use, as a marketing tool. A good way of getting some attention for Unreal and Sony, as you say. All speculation of course, and we'll see.

They've said there's nothing special about the PS5 making this possible - it can be implemented on PC and Xbox, so hopefully we'll get to see it at some point.
Well, in the demo they have many billions of triangles - which you don't really need, even when developing the assets.

30 FPS with that kind of (albeit reduced in real-time) poly-count is, certainly to me, extremely impressive.

Not that there's a guarentee it would hold up with AI and elaborate game mechanics running as well - but it seems viable to me.

Their entire strategy with this new iteration of the engine seems to revolve around it being very practical and helpful for modern development, so it would be one gigantic waste of effort if developers couldn't make workable games with it.

I mean, what would be the point? It's not like developers are stupid enough to use this if it doesn't actually work.

Obviously it will be possible on other platforms - it's just that you probably need a certain level of hardware. For instance, I suspect my own 1080 ti might struggle to match this level of detail, mostly because of the custom chips on PS5.

But once I upgrade, it should be another matter.

Anyway, this is all a bit too academic for my tastes. I usually don't like to speculate with this little to go on.

It's just guesswork based on limited and potentially fictional information

So, I think I'll leave it there.

But I'm certainly going to follow development - and I'll be sure to check up on PS5 games, to see if there's anything to this thing.

GlimpseDart

Guest

#19

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

May 14th, 2020, 13:21
Fair enough. I don't mind speculating on incomplete information if it's an interesting subject. Trying to puzzle out how the trick might be done.

I don't think they would be investing in it if they didn't believe it had a future for practical development (I'm sure they intend for a most of their tech demo stuff to have practical application in time) - I'm just a bit skeptical about whether it will be a good choice for this generation of hardware. Studios usually work pretty hard to squeeze the maximum performance out of the hardware, and though this system might save on certain costs, it may not be the best way to achieve maximum bang for the buck.

If it works the way I think it might, then I think the complexity of the geometry might not be that significant to performance. It just can't be processing that many triangles, so I think the approach might be so radically different that the triangle count doesn't really matter.
--
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep."
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela

#20

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,944
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » PS5 New Unreal Tech
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:46.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by DragonByte Security (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch