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May 19th, 2021, 19:34
Strange how Owlcat always seems to feel the need to add unnecessary layers on the top of their very good games. Imo, Kingmaker would have been a better game without the kingdom management part. Hopefully, I won't feel the same with the crusade/army management of this new game …
Well unnecessary is a very subjective word to use in this case considering how many people enjoy the Kingdom stuff, although I understand it is just your own opinion.

Wanted to give an alternative view point though since it is subjective. I know i was a little wary of it at first, mainly because I don't like timed quests, but once I got the hang of it I really enjoyed it. I did put the kingdom difficulty on easy. I loved being in charge of my own kingdom and managing it but I didn't want to stress out about it falling apart - I just wanted to enjoy building it up and doing the related quests. I also found there was plenty of time to do the quests and it was simply a matter of being aware of when to go do something.

So for me it was a key part of the game, integral to the story and plot line. I play many adventure games like this so enjoyed having something a bit more novel and different added then simply the standard adventure.
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May 19th, 2021, 19:43
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
Yep, I've played the alpha and got an impression.
Two reasons why I'm not a fan:

The first is merely a personal one. I don't ike my characters to become to powerful and "epic" too quickly. In a computer RPG this almost always happens by design anyway. It's desired to give players a feeling of progression, the possibility to play around with builds, and step by step exploration of new mechanics (e.g. spells, feats etc.).
Now with the mystic paths the problem is even bigger. The characters become more powerful even faster.

The second one is that I think it was a strategically wrong decision to include this additional layer in the base game. The pathfinder system already is quite complex by today's RPG standards. Adding another layer even more scares away new players who are not experienced with the Pathfinder ruleset.

In my opinion mystic paths would have been a perfect feature for an expansion or a sequel (with a character import from WotR). By then the players would have experimented with and fully explored the basic system. So the additional layer would really be a exciting feature.
Also the problem of the characters becoming too powerfull too fast would have been scaled down.
I will add that I tend to favor the low levels the most in games myself. I always restart FO4 and Skyrim once I get too high in levels. I love working towards skills, perks, abilities, and leveling up. That sense of growth and challenge.

So I was nervous about Mythic levels which are the opposite of that in some ways. The top of the ladder as it were.

Well I can say, for me, it turns out the "low" levels are still as much fun and I am more eager than ever to earn each of my regular levels and my mythic levels. While it sounds all very powerful … so are your enemies. I die plenty even on normal mode, let alone core mode, mythic abilities or now. A lot of that is because they do have limits on use and situations so they can help you feel mythic at times, like it should, but also keeps the challenge. I am sure there are ways to create very over-powered builds that eventually let you play on auto-pilot on hardest modes but I was never about doing power builds. I like builds that are a mix of role playing while also being viable enough to play at normal difficulty. I do find you can gimp yourself in some builds if you want to play on harder modes though.

That being said this whole campaign is built around a mythic style game with gods and demons and very large decisions going on. Its intergral to the game and I think a very cool and novel approach as it adds something different to the standard CRPG fare that is based on just having another adventure.

So I applaud Owlcats for taking some risk to try new things and add some diversity - like the Kingdom in Kingmaker, and the Mythic paths in WOTR. Its a cool new feature to explore, more build options to craft your own ideal character, and more variety in general.

So far it also has not turned me into a god who can do anything either. The frequent dirt naps my character is taking is proof enough of that

All that being said I would not want this in most games as I do prefer lower levels. But to have a new game focused on it completely, versus just tacked on, with an epic story to go with it, is a ton of fun and very pleased to have this variety in a game.

EDIT: Plus I am hoping the Mythic Legend may also offer some additional RP options.

You also have the option to decline all celestial powers and walk the path of the Legend—а human capable of great deeds. The acts of a mortal are sometimes more inspiring than those of any deity. Several gods of Golarion were humans before they ascended to godhood, including the crusade’s patron deity, Iomedae. One need not be a mythic creature, an outsider, or one of the goddesses's chosen to become a hero. This path may be a hard one, full of temptation, but the mortal who treads it rightly earns their title: Mythic Legend.
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May 19th, 2021, 19:54
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post


Not easy to keep chaotic neutral, some of the decisions push me towards CG, some of which I disagree with, they look way more neutral than good.

It's only coming in the 5th chapter so you won't get that in the beta. You'll have to take some important decisions about your path in that chapter, and this option will come up among others (I don't know whether there are prerequisites for that one). Owlcat said that mechanically, this path was even more unique than most of the other paths, sounds very interesting.
Thanks for the information on ML. Also explains the missing information on the Gold Dragon, which is also of interest to me. Angel one is really not me but I wanted to try the standard crusader path with the Angels and Demons fighting. Hence the Aasimar (Angle-Kin) Demonslaying Ranger taking that path along with his wolf of course

Oddly enough, as someone who doesn't play evil, I am very tempted (ha!) by the demon mythic path. I keep wondering if I could play the Bloodrager Tiefling Reformed Fiend who takes that "evil" path but plays it for good, if possible. Not sure how many evil dialogues I would be able to skip for the mythic path aspect and still be eligible. So far, into chapter 2, all the "Evil Mythic Path" dialogue options were not that evil IMO and more dealing with inner rage. So might be possible.

Speaking of which I try not to get too hung up on the alignments myself, although granted also not playing a Paladin or Monk or Druid which requires you stay in a certain alignment or lose your abilities.

My cleric of NG is not far from shifting to CG simply because the more I play him the more his personality aligns that way - not because I am choosing dialogue choices to fit his alignment but because I am picking choices that fit his character. Clerics, I believe, are allowed to have a 1 point shift from their gods alignment and still be okay so NG to CG should be good as that is a one point shift. If not I will either have to appeal to my god for atonement or change gods. But he may not actually shift - just that he seems to pick a lot of chaotic choices lately.

I also played a CG character once who did completely shift (in Kingmaker) from CG to NG and almost became LG.

In general I chose based on the personality and that sometimes develops a bit differently than planned … or my concept of what X choice is for an alignment is different from the developers idea (as you pointed out in your above post this can happen).
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May 19th, 2021, 20:12
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Oddly enough, as someone who doesn't play evil, I am very tempted (ha!) by the demon mythic path. I keep wondering if I could play the Bloodrager Tiefling Reformed Fiend who takes that "evil" path but plays it for good, if possible. Not sure how many evil dialogues I would be able to skip for the mythic path aspect and still be eligible. So far, into chapter 2, all the "Evil Mythic Path" dialogue options were not that evil IMO and more dealing with inner rage. So might be possible.
You should ask Purple about the lich path, it may interest you

I think I'd be unable to play evil.
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Speaking of which I try not to get too hung up on the alignments myself, although granted also not playing a Paladin or Monk or Druid which requires you stay in a certain alignment or lose your abilities.
I find it funny and interesting to try and stick to a style, and the dialog choices serve as a reminder for that. I think that if that wasn't there, I'd play much more loosely on the choices and I'd be inconsistent (not that it would bother me). I'm usually fine being around good/chaotic/neutral/lawful, finding it unnatural to be truly neutral all the time, but maybe boring to be good all the time… and draining to be lawful all the time. It's silly because it's just a game, but we probably identify with the main character to some extent when playing.

So yeah, for clerics it's easy to get into trouble if the alignment doesn't fit
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May 19th, 2021, 22:42
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Well I can say, for me, it turns out the "low" levels are still as much fun and I am more eager than ever to earn each of my regular levels and my mythic levels. While it sounds all very powerful € so are your enemies. I die plenty even on normal mode, let alone core mode, mythic abilities or now. A lot of that is because they do have limits on use and situations so they can help you feel mythic at times, like it should, but also keeps the challenge. I am sure there are ways to create very over-powered builds that eventually let you play on auto-pilot on hardest modes but I was never about doing power builds. I like builds that are a mix of role playing while also being viable enough to play at normal difficulty. I do find you can gimp yourself in some builds if you want to play on harder modes though.
I failed to explain thet properly. For me it's not about the power in game mechanics or in relation to the enemies. It's more about the narrative. If the main character is a demi-god fighting even more powerful arch-demons, the main char is not too powerful in relation concering mechanics. But it's an epic, extremely powerful narrative.
But I like it better if the main character is more down to earth. A "regular outstanding hero" so to speak.
Like Aragorn, Geralt, Shepard, The Grey Warden, Drizzt & the gang. These are exceptional humanoids but not on a level with demi-gods. That's what I want to play.
I want to got to the tavern and hang around with regular people.
I hope that makes some sense.

That being said this whole campaign is built around a mythic style game with gods and demons and very large decisions going on. Its intergral to the game and I think a very cool and novel approach as it adds something different to the standard CRPG fare that is based on just having another adventure.

So I applaud Owlcats for taking some risk to try new things and add some diversity - like the Kingdom in Kingmaker, and the Mythic paths in WOTR. Its a cool new feature to explore, more build options to craft your own ideal character, and more variety in general.
Yep, they have a vision and stick to it. That's great.
I haven't been happy with the choice of the WotR adventure path because then it was more or less clear which direction the game would take.

Of course I still hope the game will be a great financial success so I can see more games from them based on adventure paths I would be more exceited for.
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May 20th, 2021, 02:39
Okay just WOW this game is rapidly becoming a new favorite. I can't recall the last game where some small part of the character build, like picking a god and domain as obscure as Gozreh, has had two custom text and dialogue options so far.

I mean I use my imagination but there is no denying when the game itself does stuff like this … just wow. Call me impressed.



Thanks for explaining @Morrandir and makes sense. I might argue that Geralt is hardly an ordinary person. Not a demi-god of course but not really one of the common folk, nor is Shepherd But I get what you mean totally. Demi-gods don't normally sit around with the locals drinking bear - although maybe Cayden Cailean might.

That being said as someone who doesn't really want to be an epic god .. I so far don't feel like one. I made it only to chapter 3 in the alpha and only partly into chapter 3 now so I guess that could change later.

I actually feel more "exclusion" being the Knight Commander than I do as some epic being.

For me I get to play down to earth hero's most of the times in games. By down to earth I mean your examples - Gray Warden (or the main in DA2 and 3), the guy in Piallars, I would say Baldurs Gate but you do play a child of a god in that one … anyhow, and this is only for me, I get enough games I can do that so confess I do enjoy this change of pace more than I thought … as I was a bit turned off by the mythic idea as well. Now I am embracing it for what it is and having fun.

That being said wouldn't want all games like this. My overall preference is to have a mostly ordinary character who has a few special aspects to them that makes them unique - shape changer, supernatural gift, etc.
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May 20th, 2021, 04:11
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
Strange how Owlcat always seems to feel the need to add unnecessary layers on the top of their very good games. Imo, Kingmaker would have been a better game without the kingdom management part. Hopefully, I won't feel the same with the crusade/army management of this new game,
I would imagine they "felt the need" to add it because they were adapting a Pathfinder module path in which kingdom management plays a major part.
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May 20th, 2021, 16:21
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I would imagine they "felt the need" to add it because they were adapting a Pathfinder module path in which kingdom management plays a major part.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I never played a PnP campaign with such a layer. Usually, we already have our hands full with the classic adventuring.

For the Kingmaker pc game, I thought it was half-assed, it was very disconnected from the "main" part of the game, and more often then not, it was just disrupting. Forcing us to return to our capital city when I would rather spend more time just exploring the game very nice and rich world.
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May 20th, 2021, 16:30
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
Interesting, I didn't know that. I never played a PnP campaign with such a layer. Usually, we already have our hands full with the classic adventuring.

For the Kingmaker pc game, I thought it was half-assed, it was very disconnected from the "main" part of the game, and more often then not, it was just disrupting. Forcing us to return to our capital city when I would rather spend more time just exploring the game very nice and rich world.
Yeah, I have a friend who participated in a Kingmaker campaign (as a player) for literally a couple of years. It's meant to be sprawling and long. I couldn't make a one to one comparison, but it seems like maybe Owlcat tried to pack everything from the printed material into the game.

The upcoming game also adapts a printed module path, so it's likely that any components of the game are similarly from the source material.

For my part, I didn't think the management layer was disconnected at all. I thought it was very well integrated into the questing parts. But I did find it clunky to have to go back to the area of my kingdom and check things all the time. Owlcat could have done a better job on that simply from an interface//notification perspective. It's a tremendous game, especially for a new studio, but there are a few things they made tedious that don't have to be. Like not being able to cast spells on party members from the capital. Having to go to some random adventure area just to be able to cast restoration on everybody, for example, was annoying.
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May 20th, 2021, 17:08
I thought it was disconnected because whatever you did in the kingdom management part had little impact on what was going on in the adventuring part of the game. A better economy wouldn't make you more wealthy, a stronger army didn't give you allies during encounters, more "religion" didn't help your cleric, etc etc. Allies gone on a mission were still in your castle and/or in your group. It basically felt like playing two different games*.
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May 20th, 2021, 18:04
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
Allies gone on a mission were still in your castle and/or in your group.
I didn't assign a regent for many hours because I assumed one couldn't be a regent and rove the countryside with me simultaneously, and both of my choices were regular members of my active party.
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May 20th, 2021, 19:40
Yeah, I think I did something similar. I didn't want to send my best warrior on a mission since I thought she couldn't stay with me.
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May 20th, 2021, 21:26
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
Forcing us to return to our capital city when I would rather spend more time just exploring the game very nice and rich world.
Just to emphasize what JFarrell71 hinted at, in case you don't know: you can manage the kingdom from outside the capital too, click on the "Kingdom" icon at the bottom right when you travel on the map. That will save you a lot of time. It's not available outside of your kingdom.

The projects and events are linked to the main quest, so it's not entirely disconnected from the story, but there are other areas where the two parts seem to have been developed independently. For example, the abilities of the advisors are sometimes conflicting with the main class abilities of the corresponding characters. So I ended up equipping some of them with gear to boost the abilities in combat, and other gear to boost the advisor's bonus (without knowing exactly when they had to wear it).

Or the buildings are different on the map of the kingdom management and in the corresponding city when you visit them. I know that would have been more work, but it feels awkward.

Overall it didn't bother me much. I could have done without it, but I didn't mind. At the beginning it was a nice distraction and interesting to discover (and to get boosts in the kingdom), until it became mandatory to spend hours in it to make the main quest progress.
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May 20th, 2021, 23:30
I'm curious if this will improve upon Kingmaker.

While I did enjoy Kingmaker for the most part, I it had several weaknesses.

Too much filler/trash combat for one. Not enough voice acting for another.

The kingdom part of the game was poorly done, I think, but I concede that it was different and had potential.

But the actual implementation of Pathfinder rules was quite well done.

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May 21st, 2021, 05:58
Originally Posted by TheDart View Post
Not enough voice acting for another.
That seems like an odd complaint for this type of game. I guess I can see it if you really like the voice acting that much. I can't say it's an important aspect for me in games like this.
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May 21st, 2021, 07:37
I'm not great at reading games in general. It helps my immersion if I have the narrative spoonfed to me. It's actually not that different from why I prefer audiobooks to actually reading them.

I'm lazy in that way, and I struggle to stay interested in verbose filler like you will inevitably find in books or games like this.

Not a complaint so much as it's a personal preference that I need to have met for optimal enjoyment.

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May 21st, 2021, 09:48
@TheDart, from your comments it's probably not a game for you either, Wrath of the Righteous has the same level of story depth and lore - what you call verbose filler, and as with Kingmaker, only the important dialogues are voice-acted (the actors are very good). And there are also combats.

It's a strange combination to dislike combats and long stories to read, and to only like the voice acting and appreciate the rule set. For CRPG anyway, since those are the base components. I was about to recommend checking Solasta or Divinity: Original Sin 2, which are fully voice-acted, but they also have a good share of combat, so you'll have to see.

Personally I prefer dialogues not to be fully spoken, it takes much more time to listen than to read. Having voice for the important dialogues emphasizes their importance, so I find it a good formula.
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May 21st, 2021, 10:42
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post
@TheDart, from your comments it's probably not a game for you either, Wrath of the Righteous has the same level of story depth and lore - what you call verbose filler, and as with Kingmaker, only the important dialogues are voice-acted (the actors are very good). And there are also combats.

It's a strange combination to dislike combats and long stories to read, and to only like the voice acting and appreciate the rule set. For CRPG anyway, since those are the base components. I was about to recommend checking Solasta or Divinity: Original Sin 2, which are fully voice-acted, but they also have a good share of combat, so you'll have to see.

Personally I prefer dialogues not to be fully spoken, it takes much more time to listen than to read. Having voice for the important dialogues emphasizes their importance, so I find it a good formula.
We all like different things for different reasons.

I don't dislike combat at all. I wouldn't be much of a CRPG fan if I did

What I don't particularly enjoy is trash fights in mostly empty overland areas - which is a big part of Kingmaker. It's exhausting to me - especially in turn-based mode.

Not that it's all that different from Baldur's Gate, mind you - which is obviously a spiritual predecessor.

I think it has to do with how my tastes have evolved - and how the genre has evolved.

For instance, I greatly enjoy Pillars of Eternity 2 - because it has almost no filler that's not entirely optional, and I think the presentation and tone is vastly superior.

But it all comes down to personal preference.

I also don't necessarily dislike reading long stories - I just greatly prefer voiced presentations.

I mean, I wouldn't enjoy Witcher 3 or Fallout 4 as much without voice acting, either.

But there's nothing wrong with personal preferences. I know a lot of people who enjoy reading rather than listening to characters actually talk to them.

That's fair - and why I don't consider my own personal tastes a "complaint".

I'm not asking the developers to change their approach for my sake, certainly.

With that said, I understand that Wrath of the Righteous WILL have more voice acting - just not as much as it could have.

Also, I've been led to believe that the developers have said it's not a design choice, but that it has to do with the budget involved. Not sure if that's true, but it makes sense.

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May 21st, 2021, 11:02
It's a strange combination to dislike combats and long stories to read, and to only like the voice acting and appreciate the rule set. For CRPG anyway, since those are the base components. I was about to recommend checking Solasta or Divinity: Original Sin 2, which are fully voice-acted, but they also have a good share of combat, so you'll have to see.
Forgot this part.

I've played and completed DOS2 - which was an amazing experience. Played it cooperatively with my brother and a mutual friend. Not of lot of trash fights, though.

I didn't enjoy the way-over-the-top Larian approach to combat design much, though. I mean, I don't think a single fight ever went according to plan - because of the endless environmental hazards.

I'm a fan of unpredictable outcomes to a certain extent, but I must say I really do prefer tactical combat systems where you can sort of dictate that the result is in your favor by being clever about it.

Maybe that's possible in DOS2 if you're really good at the hazard stuff, but I found it too unwieldy for my tastes.

As for Solasta, I've played an early build and it's promising. But it seems to emphasize combat over pretty much everything else - which is probably not my thing.

Also, the story seems a little silly and light. I rarely enjoy CRPGs without a strong narrative.

But I'll probably end up playing it once it's done.

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May 21st, 2021, 12:32
I don't judge anyone's tastes, just wondering whether you liked this style of games I understand better now, I think.
Originally Posted by TheDart View Post
I don't dislike combat at all. I wouldn't be much of a CRPG fan if I did

What I don't particularly enjoy is trash fights in mostly empty overland areas - which is a big part of Kingmaker. It's exhausting to me - especially in turn-based mode.
I'm still not entirely sure which you're referring to, likely random encounters, or maybe some of the dungeons (but there aren't many of them)?. I found some of the combats somewhat repetitive and longer than necessary, but they were part of the story, like at Pitax or at the House at the End of Time, the end-of-game combats. But they're not in empty or generic areas, they're in "story" areas, so that's probably not what bothered you.

Sure, TB makes them far too long, this is a very enjoyable mode though

WotR have epic combats, some of them are quite long too. Now I'm using RTwP with a few exceptions and honestly, they were fine and entertaining, more than Kingmaker IMO.

There are as many random encounters, if that's what you disliked. You can select story mode though, or the number of enemies, so that should allow you to tune the experience somewhat.

The locations have improved a lot, even for random encounters.
Originally Posted by TheDart View Post
With that said, I understand that Wrath of the Righteous WILL have more voice acting - just not as much as it could have.

Also, I've been led to believe that the developers have said it's not a design choice, but that it has to do with the budget involved. Not sure if that's true, but it makes sense.
They improved in quality and presentation, so I hope there will be more voice-acting because it's so well done (it was very good in Kingmaker too). That must be a huge budget indeed!

Originally Posted by TheDart View Post
I didn't enjoy the way-over-the-top Larian approach to combat design much, though. I mean, I don't think a single fight ever went according to plan - because of the endless environmental hazards.
Yes, that's also my issue with them, even if I appreciate the overall, outstanding quality of the game. I learned to get over this part, just wished it was different. There will still be a little bit of that in Baldur's Gate 3 I'm afraid, but to a lesser extent.

Solasta is very interesting, do keep an eye on that one, especially if you like D&D 5E. But indeed, lighter on the story side, and the quality is a bit lower because it's a small studio. As you have probably seen, the dialogs are presented as cut scenes and the models are not the same quality as Baldur's Gate 3, or even D:OS.

The voices are fine and convincing, except one or two very minor roles, but again, not the outstanding quality of Owlcat Games or Larian Studios. The budget was the limitation factor, actually, because they wanted everything to be spoken. That's why the story isn't as deep, and why there aren't as many choices & consequences as Pathfinder.

The overall result is very good, except if you're looking for a heavy-storied game and long dialogues. It's more casual, fun and spontaneous.
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