Knights of the Chalice - Reaches v.1.14

I'm not knocking it for an indy release, but to say that it puts commercial companies to shame is just ridiculous - if bugs can be discovered and fixed this quickly with the limited resources then there's no reason to expect they would be at all present in a commercial game, or that if they were people would scream about the lack of polish and/or deliberate post release content holding back - see the arguments against DLC for example.

To allow the guy some slack is absolutely fine - I'm for that as well, but to claim it's somehow better than a commercial release because of the multitude of quick to discover/fix bugs and features is just daft.

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I agree that it is ridiculess that it puts commercial companies to shame, but that's the way it is with most commercial PC games being released. They are much less finished and complete than this game, and take much longer to release any patches. Their are exceptions like most Blizzard games for example..... they keep releasing both gameplay improvement and fixes in a steady stream after most releases.

Dhruin said:

No, it isn't ridiculous. A big part of the patches has been feature additions and improvements, not just bugs.

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And if a non-indy company does this they get accused of holding back features which should have been there in the box.

kalniel said:

And if a non-indy company does this they get accused of holding back features which should have been there in the box.

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While it's nice to make statements about games and their companies in general, the point remains that this PARTICULAR game developer produced the best D&D combat sim I've ever played (better then even ToEE!) with decent enough story/quest system and a very large world. Then this particular game developer has released like 14 patches in like 2-3 weeks for a game that I couldn't find significant bugs in to begin with (and I work in QA irl). So... yes, maybe people give indie developers more of a chance, but I remain of the opinion that this particular indie game developer has put in more effort at keeping customers happy that I have seen from anyone else, be they indie or commercial.

screeg said:

@crpgnut: If you're at the Hill Giant Fortress, I think it's a little early to write off the game as ridiculously easy. The game caps out at level 20. Also, you're the first person I've heard say that, anywhere.

In my games, the fighters have plenty of opportunity for killing, because I don't always get the initiative and the field is often either too large or too cramped to just lay waste with Ice Storm.

I'm glad there are no pre-combat buffs. I always found that bit tedious. I think it balances well with allowing off-the-cuff spellcasting and crafting away from town.

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I didn't say ridiculously easy, I said much easier than I anticipated. I was going to build a munchkin party because I suck at AD&D and thought I'd need all the help I could get. It turned out that I'm quite able to win battles though without having to resort to doing that. I did re-roll till I got 16's or better in the primary attributes, but didn't go with "full-18's".

I hope the game is bigger than it's looking, because I'm level 12 already and level 20 is only 8 levels left and I've only been playing with this party since Friday. Is there another world map, or are there places that don't appear on the map until later? If not, then the game isn't very long. Maybe 30-40 hours total? It's not too small, but nothing like the Jeff Vogel games, which are priced similarly but offer many more hours of gameplay.

My favorite battle in the game so far was the large battle that ends the first major quest. Great big huge area to fight in, but I still left my mage in the tunnel and he killed all but 3 of the enemy. The knights took out the physically large being, thank goodness!

I rate this game favorably. Good support, good TB/tactical combat. A glaring weakness would be the designer's need to have ambushes for so many battles. Oh no! I'm suddenly dropped into an ambush because I have zero other options for approaching the situation. That's getting old already. This is the reason I'd like pre-battle buffing. I generally know when a big battle is coming. Wouldn't you think that I'd be smart enough to be prepared?

kalniel said:

And if a non-indy company does this they get accused of holding back features which should have been there in the box.

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So you need to balance the ledger against the two or three die-hard, marginalised, Codex posters who roll that rhetoric out?

kalniel said:

And if a non-indy company does this they get accused of holding back features which should have been there in the box.

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There's a huge difference between indy and non-indy developers, especially when it comes to manpower and resources.

Sergius64 said:

While it's nice to make statements about games and their companies in general, the point remains that this PARTICULAR game developer produced the best D&D combat sim I've ever played (better then even ToEE!) with decent enough story/quest system and a very large world. Then this particular game developer has released like 14 patches in like 2-3 weeks for a game that I couldn't find significant bugs in to begin with (and I work in QA irl). So... yes, maybe people give indie developers more of a chance, but I remain of the opinion that this particular indie game developer has put in more effort at keeping customers happy that I have seen from anyone else, be they indie or commercial.

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I think that's a great way of putting it and I'm in agreement.

Dhruin said:

So you need to balance the ledger against the two or three die-hard, marginalised, Codex posters who roll that rhetoric out?

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I don't need to do anything - there will be die-hards on each side of every possible debate on the Interwebs and for the most part they post in such a way that instantly dissuades anyone sensible from taking their posts seriously.

JDR13 said:

There's a huge difference between indy and non-indy developers, especially when it comes to manpower and resources.

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Yes, I agree there's a huge difference, but that didn't seem to have been taken into account in the post that I responded to. Perhaps I'm missing Dhurin's message and I should have just ignored the post.

GothicGothicness said:

This game really put commercial companies to shame regarding releasing patches....

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I agree.

*Normally*, huge companies asren't THAT fast !

With making patches, I mean.

There are still games out there whoich are partially unpatched (EA, anyone ?), and some received patches only for the English-speaking markets. No localized patches, please.

I bow before the makers of this small game because I acknowledge their sped in making patches.

If there was a "speed-patching contest", I think they'd have a reasonable chance to win.

Ah, well...sometimes these things take on a life of their own.

v1.15 has been released, so we can start the argument anew.

Dhruin said:

Ah, well...sometimes these things take on a life of their own.

v1.15 has been released, so we can start the argument anew.

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I assume they try to get an entry in the book of records:

"The game with highest value of ppm*. "

* patch per minute

It shows the guy wants the game as perfect as possible. He hasn't heavily promoted the game because he's allowing the early buyers to act as a test group. That's probably a good idea since he can't afford a QA department. That said, he'll want to move on this quickly before other "big name" games hit the market. Nobody will be looking at the indie scene much when Dragon Age/Risen/Divinity 2/ are newly installed on their hard drives.

It sounds like the early buyers are asking for improvements more than asking for bug fixes. Unlike NWN 2 which still has serious bugs after how many years?

Would you have rather he waited 2 weeks (or however long it has been) and only then made a v1.1 with all these fixes? This is, in fact, how many larger companies do it. I'm a firm proponent of the "release early, release often" philosophy, and this is precisely that, so thumbs up for that.