Dragon Age 2 - Hands-On Preview @ Videogamer

Outstanding analysis Skaven!

I hate to see even more evidence how the term RPG is being diluted. The reviewer, sadly, probably is accurate in describing what more and more developers seem to think is an "RPG." I agonized over what was classic versus casual when looking at Arcania … now even a basic hack-and-slash seems "worthy" of being called an RPG. Even some of the people I most respect, many in this RPGwatch forum and in this thread, with the best insights based on long experience have widely different views of what a core RPG is.

I am really rethinking how I to do a responsible job reviewing a new "RPG" offering that provides a reader enough insight to make a qualified choice. If i say it is "good" based on my perspective of what makes a good RPG, that means little to anyone else and can be quite misleading to anyone who does not know what games I like best or what kind of RPG I am using as my frame of reference. I read reviews claiming something is a great RPG and then get the game to find it is an entertaining hack-and-slash with a skill tree and inventory — the definition of an RPG to some. And I no longer have any clue how to revire something like FoV (Divinity 2) that was a fun expansion but almost nothing like the original (neither the first half Div2 RPG, nor the 2nd half Div2 hack-and-slash.)

Oh well. Bottom line is you are (imho) spot on, Skaven! Sounds like you got as frustrated as I was this summer and just needed to yell at the developers. Thanks for your post.

booboo said:

Do we know if Darkspawn are going to play a major role (yet again)? That would be phenomenally dull.

Click to expand...

It's not about the Darkspawn. You see a few in the beginning, because it happen during the Blight, though.

booboo said:

As for comments about single fixed protagonists - DA:O was not the Witcher, and no one expected it to be similar in any way. I loved the Witcher, but I was expecting to play …yes, you guessed it - a Witcher! Throwing away a staple of previous Bioware games - where you had complete freedom to craft your character - is a step backwards.

Click to expand...

You never had complete freedom to craft your character in BioWare's game beside NWN where you were just a random Academy student. The Bhaalspawn, Revan, Monk Guy, Shepard, the Warden are all fixed protagonist. Some games just happen to offer a bit more freedom from the story than others.

By the way, Hawke is the character surname, just like in DA:O or Mass Effect. The male default name is Garrett, the female default name is Marian.

skavenhorde said:

God, you sound exactly like I did back when people were screaming about "teh new shit" and other horrendous PR mistakes by Bioware back when DA 1 was coming out.

As for the anger, nope sorry not going to drop it whether you like it or not. I realize there are other games out there, but Bioware's huge step back is a big disappointment to me. I won't be posting another newsbit like that, but I sure as hell am going to voice my disapproval over this direction that Bioware seems to be heading in.

If you think I don't know that my own tiny little voice makes absolutely no difference at all then just take a look at my signature. So just let people have their rage over certain games being butchered. We're extremely lucky with Fallout: New Vegas. The last game I enjoyed as much as New Vegas was The Witcher. Dues Ex: Human Revolution looks to be a great game as well, but really good rpgs are few and far between. It's just really disappointing to get attached to a setting so quickly and then have it turn into this.

You are on a RPG website, not a FPS or action one. We get MAYBE two or three passable ones in a year. If we're having a really good year then we'll get five or six (including indies). A really bad year maybe one or two barely rpgs. So yea I tend to get annoyed when a great RPG gets butchered.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more.Bioware is turning into a former shell of what it once was.I have never seen a company bash one of its most successful games.You should see the bioware social forum were everybody tries to stress why we dont like the direction and be told in a polite way to shutup we don't care about our older fans.It seems bioware has been successful in getting rid of its old fanbase and aquiring a load of sheeple who will buy it just beacause its bioware.Brand name and image mean nothing to me when a company spits on me and tells me my opinion doesnt matter to them as a customer.

It's all about selling out to greed. After all the Drs. are nearing their retirement age, if not there already.

I'm happy to report that Dragon Age 2 retains the first game's habit of soaking its cast in buckets of gore, allowing for some amusingly odd-looking post-fight chats. Isabella's face and heaving cleavage are covered in blood, but she doesn't seem to mind: her purring words of thanks suggest that she's more than happy with the day's outcome, and before long she's dropping not-so-subtle hints about letting Hawke delve into her furry dungeon. For all Dragon Age 2's revisions, it seems that some things never change.

Click to expand...

Oh sweet jeebus! This has got to be a new low in gaming press. It's so embarrassingly bad that it even surpasses (at least equals) the Nowgamer's Arcania review. This fellow really understands RPGs. Yessiree! I bet he enjoys the farting dialogue of Fable too. Hooray for boobies and all that.

As to what DA2 is forming up to be, I'm getting more unimpressed and uninterested by every preview. This whole 'press a button and something awesome happens' way of game design, coupled with further stramlining of the RPG elements from DA1 (that were themselves quite streamlined to begin with) is disheartening. *sigh*

I fully agree with Skavenhorde on this. (Even though the Skaven are vermin that should be cleansed from the Old World along with everything else tainted by Chaos. For Sigmar! For the Empire! )

azarhal said:

I
You never had complete freedom to craft your character in BioWare's game beside NWN where you were just a random Academy student. The Bhaalspawn, Revan, Monk Guy, Shepard, the Warden are all fixed protagonist. Some games just happen to offer a bit more freedom from the story than others.

Click to expand...

Well, decisions such as race were not imposed in you in their older RPG titles - the ones that people here are referring to. We're talking about the 'spiritual succesor' to BG not Mass Effect or anything related. In those games, I could be an elf, dwarf etc as one could in DA:O. As for Shepard - the point is - in fact - that Bioware seem to be throwing away the "BG" way of doing RPGs' in favour of a Mass Effect type approach. I find that sad. If you like that, then you are precisely the customer they are appealing to - so clearly they will find some support.

Just because Bioware always had a relatively prepared role for the player, there's little sense in ignoring reality and going all black/white in terms of what that means.

They used to have pretty deep character systems, with a lot of freedom of how to tailor your character - and how to play him.

To have it be a set race with a set name, is not how they used to handle things back in the pre-Jade Empire days.

Even KotOR allowed for your own name and had a more involved character system than what seems to be the new style.

Lurking Grue said:

I fully agree with Skavenhorde on this. (Even though the Skaven are vermin that should be cleansed from the Old World along with everything else tainted by Chaos. For Sigmar! For the Empire! )

Click to expand...

Your doom is coming, man-thing. Remember that all tunnels lead to Skavenblight.

Seriously, I'm glad I'm not the only one getting hot and bothered by this turn of events. Dragon Age was a great game. Not the best RPG experience out there, but like I said before it was a step in the right direction.

My supreme hope is that before I have a stroke over this that they start doing the PR for the PC crowd. If I have to read one more idiotic review from people who think blood is a good thing I may have to start taking my happy pills again

Consolers like him give everyone who plays a console a bad name. I may have said I didn't hate the previewer, but the second time I read that thing I just had to hang my head in shame. It seems that Idocracy wasn't just some movie. It's a prophecy of things to come

Oh well, at least there is an rpg that's been 20 years in the making going to be released soon. I always said that if AAA abandon us then I'll just head on over to indies for my rpg experience, but I never expected that would also mean going back to the Commodore 64.

Ovenall said:

I'm somewhat disappointed, but cautiously optimistic. For me, the "strategic" battles in DA1 got really boring after about halfway through the game. I finished it, but mostly because of the story, the characters and writing.

If it were just like DA1 I'd be disappointed as well, because I have already played DA1. I couldn't even play through it a second time as it became too much of a grinding bore to hold my attention.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, it just got too much...
If DA2 resembles KOTOR, I'll be fine with.

The tactical battles in DA weren't so much the issue, as the amount of them was.

DArtagnan said:

Just because Bioware always had a relatively prepared role for the player, there's little sense in ignoring reality and going all black/white in terms of what that means.

They used to have pretty deep character systems, with a lot of freedom of how to tailor your character - and how to play him.

To have it be a set race with a set name, is not how they used to handle things back in the pre-Jade Empire days.

Even KotOR allowed for your own name and had a more involved character system than what seems to be the new style.

Click to expand...

The choice to tailor and play your character like you want is still there, the only thing they removed was the race choice, they haven't changed their storytelling mechanics since BG2, nor their combat for that matter. The way I see it, there's a lot more to a RPG than being able to pick a race in the character creation screen.

I'm not a BioWare apologist and I think that Mass Effect is an atrocity of a RPG in term of character progression (and I know that DA2 isn't moving in that direction), but the Watch is starting to resemble the Codex a bit too much these days...

How many full 3D RPG games, that aren't DnD based, offer character races selection anyway? Real question, I can't think of any beside DA:O, unless they are MMOs…

I've actually asked myself that a lot lately: Why are there so few games where we can pick something other than a human main character? I understand the fact that a completely alien culture would be too alien to understand, making it hard to craft, but that does not exclude classics like Orcs or Elves.

azarhal said:

The choice to tailor and play your character like you want is still there, the only thing they removed was the race choice, they haven't changed their storytelling mechanics since BG2, nor their combat for that matter. The way I see it, there's a lot more to a RPG than being able to pick a race in the character creation screen.

I'm not a BioWare apologist and I think that Mass Effect is an atrocity of a RPG in term of character progression (and I know that DA2 isn't moving in that direction), but the Watch is starting to resemble the Codex a bit too much these days…

How many full 3D RPG games, that aren't DnD based, offer character races selection anyway? Real question, I can't think of any beside DA:O, unless they are MMOs…

Click to expand...

Drakensang?

Anyway, the problem people have is that Hawke will most likely be another Shepard. You can give him a name, toss in a few abilities and change his bad-ass face. But in the end he always was the Shepard that Bioware intended. There was no real way to craft him in a way you wanted.

I think one of the big problems is the dialog structure. They only gave small snippets of the line Shepard was going to say. Often times I found that when I chose a specific dialog answer, Shepard would say it in a way that I did not intend. This made him feel very much like a character Bioware had created for me, instead of the other way around. I wouldn't want Hawke to be like this (and I don't want to be called "Hawke" throughout an entire game either).

Some games, like the Gothic series, do use pre-defined voices for their character. The difference is that The Nameless Hero often uses a less "pronounced" way of speaking (which is something that DID bother me about Risen), and you could basically still make him the character you wanted by joining different guilds and letting him do things YOU wanted to do. He was still MY Hero

I hope this manages to explain what I don't like about Bioware's decision.

azarhal said:

The choice to tailor and play your character like you want is still there, the only thing they removed was the race choice, they haven't changed their storytelling mechanics since BG2, nor their combat for that matter. The way I see it, there's a lot more to a RPG than being able to pick a race in the character creation screen.

Click to expand...

Racial choice, background, name (from a pool of backgrounds), and so forth.

I guess DA2 is great for you since you don't attribute value to what they did in Dragon Age, with letting you choose race and background - and then not allowing the player to carry that forward.

Just because there's "more to it", doesn't mean it's not valuable. Besides, that's just one of the changes that sound scary. Another change is the focus on action-based combat, which remains rather unclear in terms of the PC version.

Personally, I think BG2/NWN were miles ahead of Dragon Age, in terms of character customisation and multiplayer features. DA2 seems to step even further backwards - according to my tastes.

I'm not a BioWare apologist and I think that Mass Effect is an atrocity of a RPG in term of character progression (and I know that DA2 isn't moving in that direction), but the Watch is starting to resemble the Codex a bit too much these days…

Click to expand...

I'm not saying you're an apologist. I'm explaining what I like, and why I don't like what they're saying about DA2.

If you want to consider me something other than an individual with my own preferences, like a member of a collective - that's on you. Just be ready for not understanding anything about me

How many full 3D RPG games, that aren't DnD based, offer character races selection anyway? Real question, I can't think of any beside DA:O, unless they are MMOs…

Click to expand...

We're not talking about other games, we're talking about the sequel to an established game, with established lore.

I think Dragon Age did many things wrong, but one of THE coolest aspects, were the racial/background choices for your character. It was an extremely strong feature done extremely well - and they just…. dumped it completely for the sequel.

There are many games offering other things, like shooters - and I'm sure DA2 will be great in other ways. It just seems to step away from several of the great things in the prequel.

However, until the game is released - we can't really be sure. We can only go by what they tell us, and so far they've been talking about things that I don't like at all.

In fact, I haven't heard A SINGLE THING that leads me to believe the game will be an improvement in any way whatsoever.

Maybe you can tell me what you think is actually so good about it?

TheGameSquid said:

Drakensang?

Click to expand...

I forgot about that game, but it's another adaption of a pen&paper ruleset.

TheGameSquid said:

Anyway, the problem people have is that Hawke will most likely be another Shepard. You can give him a name, toss in a few abilities and change his bad-ass face. But in the end he always was the Shepard that Bioware intended. There was no real way to craft him in a way you wanted.
[…]
I hope this manages to explain what I don't like about Bioware's decision.

Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of those dialog "shortcut" either. That's what I like about Deux Ex: Human Revolution. They have a similar dialog wheel, but if you over the text you get the real thing the player is going to say. I do believe that BioWare pre-defining what a character say is a bummer, but at the same time they can't do anything else with full voice over. One of the reason I don't really like VO, the other is "shorter" game, but I like good voice over, because they can be immersive and brings thing to live.

DArtagnan said:

Racial choice, background, name (from a pool of backgrounds), and so forth.

Click to expand...

The backgrounds? Mass Effect had 3 choices of backgrounds (sarcasm).

Beside who said there will be no "backgrounds" pick in DA2, well beside the fact that you are the older sibling, that your younger siblings are twins and that dad was an apostate being pre-determined.

I think Dragon Age did many things wrong, but one of THE coolest aspects, were the racial/background choices for your character. It was an extremely strong feature done extremely well - and they just…. dumped it completely for the sequel.

Click to expand...

I liked the origins in DA, I tried all of them, but I understand the limitation it give them (mostly they cost a lot of $$$ and take lots of time to make). Wanna bet that they have a DA3 already in the oven? DA2 is actually being released 1 year early for their franchise release plan: DLC every 2-3 months, "expansion" every year, full games every 3 years.

Maybe you can tell me what you think is actually so good about it?

Click to expand...

The narrative at first, for once the story is about my character and not saving the world (sort of...). Also, having 2 people retelling "my living adventures" sound interesting to me. After that I read more about the game and learned they were revamping the rogue and adding combos to all the classes and not just the mages and that the specialization were tree-like and not just lines of talents. Sounded like an improvement to me.

I most also say that I expect an "interact movie" RPG...

azarhal said:

I forgot about that game, but it's another adaption of a pen&paper ruleset.

Click to expand...

…and there are many who enjoy such P&P adaptations, and were drawn to BG precisely because of that. I assumed its "spiritual successor" would be similar (and its successor…seemed quite reasonable given it was a DA game).

azarhal said:

…
The narrative at first, for once the story is about my character and not saving the world (sort of…). Also, having 2 people retelling "my living adventures" sound interesting to me. After that I read more about the game and learned they were revamping the rogue and adding combos to all the classes and not just the mages and that the specialization were tree-like and not just lines of talents. Sounded like an improvement to me.

Click to expand...

You're still saving "the world" its just a matter of scale. Whether its your loved ones/village/state/world - its really all been done before. I enjoy being able to forge my own story, without knowing that I was the Hero of Hobitton or whatever. Its exactly the same formula used in countless other games, just repackaged slightly. You will still rise from a lowly Level 1 peon to having a disproportionate (and unlikely) influence on your world/region/city. The "retelling" part sounds (to me) like a post-hoc justification for their quick dev. turnaround time - much easier (and cheaper!) to develop a more constrained world/game. Simply less branching options, VO etc you need to cater for. I'd be happy if they improved all aspects of the skill system, but from what I've seen, their choices seem geared towards making the game more action oriented, which is not what I was looking for in a game like this.
I think the loss of the Origins (which were pretty novel) and the freedom to evolve your character in a less constrained way are detrimental and indicative of where their games are headed. They want to appeal to a larger market - which makes sense financially - but something has to give along the way. No game can be everything to everyone.

azarhal said:

I most also say that I expect an "interact movie" RPG…

Click to expand...

Ha he said it.Bioware wont even admit its an "interactive movie" RPG.They will continue to criticize other company's of this themselves.The irony in there own words is thats not an rpg.

Again, I loved BG1 and what I played of BG2. But some people here are looking at these games with rose colored glasses.

A great deal of dialog in those games was "OK, I'll help you" or "No, I will not help you" or "Please tell me more." In other words, many if not most of the dialog choices were really extremely simple at their core, but dressed up with writing.

What I meant about the strategic battles in DA1 was that they became repetitive and boring after a while. Way too many near-identical battles with darkspawn that simply became a timesink so that the marketing department could put "Over XX hours of gameplay!" on the box and in the press releases.

I liked DA1, but I couldn't even play through it twice. It was well made, but just not very fun to actually play through the too-long, too-repetitive grind of battles and potion-management.

I'm not exactly thrilled about the road bioware has taken. We saw what happened when jowood dumbed down the Gothic series on purpose to make it more "accesible".. Obviously the result here won't be as bad as that, but I'm still worried..

Ovenall said:

Again, I loved BG1 and what I played of BG2. But some people here are looking at these games with rose colored glasses.

A great deal of dialog in those games was "OK, I'll help you" or "No, I will not help you" or "Please tell me more." In other words, many if not most of the dialog choices were really extremely simple at their core, but dressed up with writing.

Click to expand...

Sure, games have advanced since then in terms of presentation - but that's really no reason to go backwards in terms of gameplay to simplify everything.

What I meant about the strategic battles in DA1 was that they became repetitive and boring after a while. Way too many near-identical battles with darkspawn that simply became a timesink so that the marketing department could put "Over XX hours of gameplay!" on the box and in the press releases.

Click to expand...

I think you mean tactical - but anyway…

The combat system wasn't the problem, it was the amount of filler combat, which is a completely separate issue.

People are not happy with making the combat system "action-based with awesome stuff happening every time you push a button" - as that sounds completely stupid.

I liked DA1, but I couldn't even play through it twice. It was well made, but just not very fun to actually play through the too-long, too-repetitive grind of battles and potion-management.

Click to expand...

Are you saying making the combat action based will somehow remove the issue of having too much filler combat?

Maybe they should stick to the excellent combat system, but cut back on superfluous samey fights.

That's what I'd do, anyway - but we'll have to play the game to see.

But I think we should remember that Bioware themselves said that Mass Effect 2 was the best game they ever made - which is almost a direct quote from one of their top guys.

I'm sure they think so, but I certainly don't - and I'm getting a very strong vibe of them following that kind of mainstreaming approach.