Quantcast
RPGWatch Feature - Elex Review - Page 6 - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » RPGWatch Feature - Elex Review

Default RPGWatch Feature - Elex Review

November 16th, 2017, 11:00
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
But what I'm wondering about is just how "skill-based" combat is in Elex. Gothic, Gothic 2 and Risen were all very skill-based when it comes to melee combat.

How's Elex combat?
All forms of combat (1h, 2h, ranged and magic) are viable, though a "pure" approach is probably best for the first half or so. By that I mean that the damage reduction of the enemies is so high, similar to in Gothic 2: NotR, that gaining the upper hand by putting stats purely into the ones needed for a medium level weapon is the way to go.

Let's say you join the Clerics quickly with the intention of primarily using ranged weapons. Once you join them, certain rifles are unlocked, and it's well worth going straight for the top ones. Maybe even get one that says "can be upgraded" and then upgrading it. That requires a huge dex investment, but it makes such a massive difference in overcoming the damage reduction of mid-level enemies (still won't be enough for the high level ones).

The situation is the same for melee weapons. Anyone wanting an easy experience should join a faction early, pump a bunch of strength and get the faction-based ability to "modify weapons" that turn weapons into elemental damage. Elemental damage has a much easier time getting through damage reduction.

The skill requirement for melee weapons is similar to Risen 1, as dodging, blocking and such is required. However, actually getting through the damage reduction is the biggest challenge for the first 15 hours or so.

As for magic: Like I mentioned in the review, I prefer the system in Risen 3. I loved that system. The game was too easy, but that was just down to tuning. In ELEX it's certainly functional, but feels a bit flat.
Maylander is offline

Maylander

SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#101

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen
Posts: 6,815
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Maylander

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:02
One part of the open-world design I really like is how it confers actual usefulness to survival spells, abilities and gear.

High-tech sunglasses/Sixth Sense (see enemies on the radar ahead of time), the Camouflage spell (halves the range detection of enemies), Friend of Beasts (I love this one, as weaker enemies don't attack you, and it will make some bigger battles easier when you don't have to worry about the cronies of the big boss) and so on, can actually be quite useful.

It's rare for me to play an RPG where those types of things are useful in the core design. Other than like, Metal Gear Solid or something similar.
Fluent is offline

Fluent

Fluent's Avatar
The Town Jeweler
RPGWatch Team

#102

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,317
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:08
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
All forms of combat (1h, 2h, ranged and magic) are viable, though a "pure" approach is probably best for the first half or so. By that I mean that the damage reduction of the enemies is so high, similar to in Gothic 2: NotR, that gaining the upper hand by putting stats purely into the ones needed for a medium level weapon is the way to go.

Let's say you join the Clerics quickly with the intention of primarily using ranged weapons. Once you join them, certain rifles are unlocked, and it's well worth going straight for the top ones. Maybe even get one that says "can be upgraded" and then upgrading it. That requires a huge dex investment, but it makes such a massive difference in overcoming the damage reduction of mid-level enemies (still won't be enough for the high level ones).

The situation is the same for melee weapons. Anyone wanting an easy experience should join a faction early, pump a bunch of strength and get the faction-based ability to "modify weapons" that turn weapons into elemental damage. Elemental damage has a much easier time getting through damage reduction.

The skill requirement for melee weapons is similar to Risen 1, as dodging, blocking and such is required. However, actually getting through the damage reduction is the biggest challenge for the first 15 hours or so.

As for magic: Like I mentioned in the review, I prefer the system in Risen 3. I loved that system. The game was too easy, but that was just down to tuning. In ELEX it's certainly functional, but feels a bit flat.
Thank you

That's very useful - but my question was more about how PLAYER skill-based the combat system is. As in, is your own personal performance as a player relevant at all - or are stats/weapons everything?

Sorry for not being more clear.

I tend to go "pure" in most games - so it sounds like I won't go too wrong there.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#103

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:09
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
One part of the open-world design I really like is how it confers actual usefulness to survival spells, abilities and gear.

High-tech sunglasses/Sixth Sense (see enemies on the radar ahead of time), the Camouflage spell (halves the range detection of enemies), Friend of Beasts (I love this one, as weaker enemies don't attack you, and it will make some bigger battles easier when you don't have to worry about the cronies of the big boss) and so on, can actually be quite useful.

It's rare for me to play an RPG where those types of things are useful in the core design. Other than like, Metal Gear Solid or something similar.
Sounds interesting and nice.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#104

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:18
Stick skills definitely help. Some battles can be intense, where you're dodging, not only by jumping back but also jetpack dodging, as well as running or rolling. Can get pretty crazy, and fun. Dodging projectiles, even (aiming is actually coded so that any shot can miss or whizz by your head, and accuracy depends on the skill of the enemy, too.)

But, some battles will be impossible. You can gain an advantage in most battles with quick reflexes but the very, very tough enemies won't really be beat with just stick skills. Unless if you maybe spend 2 hours like the IGN reviewer did.
Fluent is offline

Fluent

Fluent's Avatar
The Town Jeweler
RPGWatch Team

#105

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,317
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:28
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
Thank you

That's very useful - but my question was more about how PLAYER skill-based the combat system is. As in, is your own personal performance as a player relevant at all - or are stats/weapons everything?

Sorry for not being more clear.

I tend to go "pure" in most games - so it sounds like I won't go too wrong there.
Stats aren't everything, but like in G2: NotR it makes a huge difference, especially early on. It's not really possible to "out-skill" a Shadowbeast in NotR in the start, and in ELEX even the low-to-mid level stuff is on par with one of those. Actually being able to damage stuff is the biggest challenge by far for the first 15 hours.

However, once you get past that, it's similar to Risen 1 in terms of player skill requirements. There's a lot to be gained from being able to pull off combos properly, using block at the right time and so on.

There is an extra element here, of course, in the jet pack. Using that correctly also makes a big difference, as certain enemies suddenly whip out a stronger ranged attack than their basic melee ones. Other enemies, however, are rendered useless.
Maylander is offline

Maylander

SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#106

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen
Posts: 6,815
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Maylander

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:32
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Stats aren't everything, but like in G2: NotR it makes a huge difference, especially early on. It's not really possible to "out-skill" a Shadowbeast in NotR in the start, and in ELEX even the low-to-mid level stuff is on par with one of those. Actually being able to damage stuff is the biggest challenge by far for the first 15 hours.

However, once you get past that, it's similar to Risen 1 in terms of player skill requirements. There's a lot to be gained from being able to pull off combos properly, using block at the right time and so on.

There is an extra element here, of course, in the jet pack. Using that correctly also makes a big difference, as certain enemies suddenly whip out a stronger ranged attack than their basic melee ones. Other enemies, however, are rendered useless.
Sounds about on par with my expectations.

Thank you.

In the original Gothic, my favorite PB game, your personal skill was quite relevant from the beginning. In fact, I clearly remember being able to defeat several of them through learning the rhythm of combat in the very beginning of the game. You didn't need 10-15 hours of pure questing to progress.

Of course, stats/weapons were king overall - but your skill and learning the patterns of your enemy mattered quite a bit.

I prefer that kind of balance - but very few games get it right.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#107

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:45
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
Sounds about on par with my expectations.

Thank you.

In the original Gothic, my favorite PB game, your personal skill was quite relevant from the beginning. In fact, I clearly remember being able to defeat several of them through learning the rhythm of combat in the very beginning of the game. You didn't need 10-15 hours of pure questing to progress.

Of course, stats/weapons were king overall - but your skill and learning the patterns of your enemy mattered quite a bit.

I prefer that kind of balance - but very few games get it right.
Yep, high level enemies (Shadowbeasts etc) were pretty much off limits, but most other creatures were fair game already in the first chapter. ELEX, however, is much closer to NotR, where damage reduction and damage done is so high that skill just can't compensate for the difference in stats.

That being said, ELEX is also a considerably bigger/longer game than the original Gothic, so I guess it's even harder to get that balance right in that case.
Maylander is offline

Maylander

SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#108

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen
Posts: 6,815
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Maylander

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 11:48
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Yep, high level enemies (Shadowbeasts etc) were pretty much off limits, but most other creatures were fair game already in the first chapter. ELEX, however, is much closer to NotR, where damage reduction and damage done is so high that skill just can't compensate for the difference in stats.

That being said, ELEX is also a considerably bigger/longer game than the original Gothic, so I guess it's even harder to get that balance right in that case.
Yeah, I'm not sure why they went this way - and how intentional it really was. I'm a big fan of PB games, but I honestly don't think they've hit that perfect balance since the original Gothic and the initial version of Gothic 2.

I always felt NotR was too much - and more designed around hardcore Gothic players than the average fan.

Which makes sense, as the hardcore PB fans seem to really enjoy spending 10-15 hours getting to a point where they can kill stuff.

I guess that means I'm not hardcore enough - but I still love PB games. ELEX, I'm not sure about yet. I CAN say that I'm not in love with it, which is unusual for me and PB games.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#109

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 13:35
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
Yeah, I'm not sure why they went this way - and how intentional it really was. I'm a big fan of PB games, but I honestly don't think they've hit that perfect balance since the original Gothic and the initial version of Gothic 2.

I always felt NotR was too much - and more designed around hardcore Gothic players than the average fan.

Which makes sense, as the hardcore PB fans seem to really enjoy spending 10-15 hours getting to a point where they can kill stuff.

I guess that means I'm not hardcore enough - but I still love PB games. ELEX, I'm not sure about yet. I CAN say that I'm not in love with it, which is unusual for me and PB games.
Completely agree. This is exactly why I feel they've moved too much in that direction. I understand the frustration from certain gamers. As a big PB fan, I'm not really frustrated by it, as I know more or less what to expect and I'm well aware that it improves, but what about people who aren't aware of PB's style?

Non-PB-fans will just hit a brick wall and think they're doing something wrong. Gothic and Gothic 2 both had steep learning curves, but you could fairly quickly get a sense of improvement. It required patience, but not 10+ hours of it. It's just a bit too much.

That being said, it really does get a whole lot better, and it reaches heights PB haven't reached since the Gothic series.
Maylander is offline

Maylander

SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#110

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen
Posts: 6,815
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Maylander

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 13:39
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Completely agree. This is exactly why I feel they've moved too much in that direction. I understand the frustration from certain gamers. As a big PB fan, I'm not really frustrated by it, as I know more or less what to expect and I'm well aware that it improves, but what about people who aren't aware of PB's style?

Non-PB-fans will just hit a brick wall and think they're doing something wrong. Gothic and Gothic 2 both had steep learning curves, but you could fairly quickly get a sense of improvement. It required patience, but not 10+ hours of it. It's just a bit too much.

That being said, it really does get a whole lot better, and it reaches heights PB haven't reached since the Gothic series.
Hehe, well - I'm about convinced that I shouldn't give up on it

Not that I was going to.

But you're right, it does seem a bad move if you want mainstream gamers to play your game.

I'm also very pleased to learn that all loot is hand-placed, as JDR tested it.

That means exploration is sure to be a lot more rewarding!
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#111

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 16th, 2017, 22:18
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Completely agree. This is exactly why I feel they've moved too much in that direction. I understand the frustration from certain gamers. As a big PB fan, I'm not really frustrated by it, as I know more or less what to expect and I'm well aware that it improves, but what about people who aren't aware of PB's style?

Non-PB-fans will just hit a brick wall and think they're doing something wrong. Gothic and Gothic 2 both had steep learning curves, but you could fairly quickly get a sense of improvement. It required patience, but not 10+ hours of it. It's just a bit too much.
That's why I think developers like PB should invest more in in-game tutorials and education.

I think there is room for a hardcore experience like this, but letting the player know more of how to handle it and what exactly they are getting into would do wonders, IMO.

I know I've harped on this a lot lately, so I will stop now.
Fluent is offline

Fluent

Fluent's Avatar
The Town Jeweler
RPGWatch Team

#112

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,317
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 10:21
To be fair, that first dude you encounter actually goes on a bit about the wild being very dangerous.

Problem is, all games have that kind of warning - and 9 out of 10 games are pushovers even on the harder settings.

So, I've been conditioned to ignore warnings of danger - because it never means anything.

Not the case here, obviously
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#113

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 10:34
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
To be fair, that first dude you encounter actually goes on a bit about the wild being very dangerous.

Problem is, all games have that kind of warning - and 9 out of 10 games are pushovers even on the harder settings.

So, I've been conditioned to ignore warnings of danger - because it never means anything.

Not the case here, obviously
Yup, you nailed it.

In most games, the Duras conversation would be "flavor text", but in ELEX he is actually describing how the game works. You'll notice that during other parts of the game, too. And a favorite little thing for me is how unnamed NPCs will comment about things relating to the game, like "He thinks that's a solution, but really it's just making things worse.", or the classic, "He's going to fuck this up…"
Fluent is offline

Fluent

Fluent's Avatar
The Town Jeweler
RPGWatch Team

#114

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,317
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 10:36
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Yup, you nailed it.

In most games, the Duras conversation would be "flavor text", but in ELEX he is actually describing how the game works. You'll notice that during other parts of the game, too. And a favorite little thing for me is how unnamed NPCs will comment about things relating to the game, like "He thinks that's a solution, but really it's just making things worse.", or the classic, "He's going to fuck this up…"
Yeah, it's too bad PB are so horribly bad at communicating stuff to new players in general, so things like this are missed. I mean, it's like they don't WANT to appeal to a larger market.

Not that I mind, personally. I'm fine buying all their games and enjoying them, so long as they think it's worth it.

Also, I have to say I don't remember a single PB game where the skill descriptions were THIS bad - and the system itself so non-intuitive. They're 100% misleading in several cases - and if you don't go outside of the game for proper information, you're almost guarenteed to invest a lot of wasted skill points because something doesn't do what you think it does.

Really odd, but I guess it's the good old translation thing.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#115

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 10:42
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
Yeah, it's too bad PB are so horribly bad at communicating stuff to new players in general, so things like this are missed. I mean, it's like they don't WANT to appeal to a larger market.

Not that I mind, personally. I'm fine buying all their games and enjoying them, so long as they think it's worth it.

Also, I have to say I don't remember a single PB game where the skill descriptions were THIS bad - and the system itself so non-intuitive. They're 100% misleading in several cases - and if you don't go outside of the game for proper information, you're almost guarenteed to invest a lot of wasted skill points because something doesn't do what you think it does.

Really odd, but I guess it's the good old translation thing.
Yeah. Although I hope I didn't waste too many points because I didn't look anything up. I still assume Attack Strength just means melee attacks and maybe bow damage. Of course if I decide to use those abilities I'll look 'em up.

And yeah, PB needs help in the tutorial-type sections. Some sort of more in-your-face type of tutorial might help. Maybe better marketing to let people know what they're really getting into, and maybe a Codex of in-game "design philosophy" (lol..that might sound pretentious, but actual education about how their games are built could help, since they are quite different than say, Skyrim.)

Dunno. I hope ELEX is a success for them, though. Would like to see some of these things improved in ELEX 2.

And I firmly believe these games aren't too hardcore for most, it's just that most give up without ever "getting them", which is the dev's problem they have to solve.
Fluent is offline

Fluent

Fluent's Avatar
The Town Jeweler
RPGWatch Team

#116

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,317
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 10:47
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Yeah. Although I hope I didn't waste too many points because I didn't look anything up. I still assume Attack Strength just means melee attacks and maybe bow damage. Of course if I decide to use those abilities I'll look 'em up.

And yeah, PB needs help in the tutorial-type sections. Some sort of more in-your-face type of tutorial might help. Maybe better marketing to let people know what they're really getting into, and maybe a Codex of in-game "design philosophy" (lol..that might sound pretentious, but actual education about how their games are built could help, since they are quite different than say, Skyrim.)

Dunno. I hope ELEX is a success for them, though. Would like to see some of these things improved in ELEX 2.

And I firmly believe these games aren't too hardcore for most, it's just that most give up without ever "getting them", which is the dev's problem they have to solve.
Well, being hardcore is really about your level of investment. How much time you're willing to spend learning and mastering something.

Games that are too hardcore for me are those that don't reward my investment.

Dark Souls would be a perfect example - because the entire game is about the player doing all the work and the game doing very little in return. Well, that's my opinion.

But if a game is rewarding - then I'm perfectly willing to invest pretty much whatever it takes.

I definitely agree that PB games are not "too hardcore" - but they're also not very good at educating the player in terms of the upcoming rewards.

ELEX is the worst example from them so far, because if you don't know PB games - you will have to be willing to stand a ton of frustration for a long time until you get a sense of reward.
NewDArt is online now

NewDArt

NewDArt's Avatar
SasqWatch

#117

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 20:14
Slightly off topic but did you guys ever play the Riddick Game? Their tutorial was so invisible, it seemed like you were playing the back story of the game. It was absolutely brilliant and it surprises me that other developers did not copy that neat little trick.

PB could have easily done the same thing by having us playing Jax for about for an hour with the real game starting at the bottom of the cliff.
Dajjer is offline

Dajjer

Dajjer's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch
Original Sin Donor

#118

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 1,491
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 20:40
Originally Posted by Dajjer View Post
Slightly off topic but did you guys ever play the Riddick Game? Their tutorial was so invisible, it seemed like you were playing the back story of the game. It was absolutely brilliant and it surprises me that other developers did not copy that neat little trick.

PB could have easily done the same thing by having us playing Jax for about for an hour with the real game starting at the bottom of the cliff.
Escape from Butcher Bay? I played it, but it's been so long I don't remember all the details about it. I do remember liking it quite a bit though.

I purchased the remastered version version a few years back but never got around to playing it. Now you've got me thinking that I should install it.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#119

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 23,718
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

November 17th, 2017, 22:31
I don't really find things like that to break immersion too much (the guard thing). Only so much a game can do.

I mean here is a super fast quick list of things you have to deal with that break immersion in most any game:

- Magic Invetory where even if limited still lets you carry multiple weapons and armor and is totally unrealistic
- Armor and items that clip
- Clothes, hair, and other items with no or limited physics
- GUI interface
- Mouse pointer
- Weapons that float above your back or next to your hip
- Lack of things humans have to do in life like shower, go the bathroom (and actually thought it was great in ELEX when the NPC's go the bathroom in the woods - nice touch that)

I am sure people could add to that easily. I don't expect games to be able to mimic life and all the nuances, intelligence, and so on.

For me immersion is more about atmosphere and that nothing in the game breaks the overall theme, lore, and feeling. For example Superman flying around in Skyrim from a mod breaks immersion.

So far in ELEX I have found it to be immersive within the theme of the game itself. There are some little issues - like using a jet-pack around the barbarians. Sometimes you have to balance game mechanics with the fun factor. I found this less irksome then some of the DA games with Bloodmages walking around unnoticed.

That being said I also know from years of playing with other people that what one person can shrug off and ignore as trivial can be a major issue for another. I know I have a couple of pet peeves in games that can really bother me that other people wouldn't even notice or if they did would not care about (Jax's horrible eyebrows annoy me far more than the flying over the guard issue, for example, but not enough to not play the game ).

-
--
Character is centrality, the impossibility of being displaced or overset. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgrimdark is offline

wolfgrimdark

wolfgrimdark's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#120

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 1,752
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » RPGWatch Feature - Elex Review
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:55.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch