Torment:ToN - Review @ RPGCodex

I guess the point Junta was making was that differences in dialogue options come from individual choice rather than character build, because of the team pooling of character traits, so when you say that "obviously, there would be differences in dialogue options", that's the part that's not strictly true, you still get [mostly] the same options, it's just up to you whether you take them. A small and nit-picky point that means nothing to a single play-through, but something that's quite important for a review if discussing replayability, character builds and all that meaningless stuff.

This actually makes alot of sense. Did PS:T have alot of different dialogiues depending on builds, in that case I never noticed it? I felt it was more about how you wanted to play TNO than how you had built your stats? Arcanum is the game that to me achieved this the best so far, and VTM:BL did it pretty damn good too. And AoD of course.

I'm going to put off my second playthrough of Torment until Oom is in, but I agree that if I can play the exact same way with a might focused Glaive as I could with my Int based Nano that does take some fun out of a replay. I will still CHOOSE to play different of course, although I never could play "evil" so it will be interesting to see how much I can change without making decision that makes me feel bad (I've no idea how I'm going to manage to leave Rhin behind without feeling like an ass).
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
3,216
Location
Sweden
This actually makes alot of sense. Did PS:T have alot of different dialogiues depending on builds, in that case I never noticed it? I felt it was more about how you wanted to play TNO than how you had built your stats? Arcanum is the game that to me achieved this the best so far, and VTM:BL did it pretty damn good too. And AoD of course.

I'm going to put off my second playthrough of Torment until Oom is in, but I agree that if I can play the exact same way with a might focused Glaive as I could with my Int based Nano that does take some fun out of a replay. I will still CHOOSE to play different of course, although I never could play "evil" so it will be interesting to see how much I can change without making decision that makes me feel bad (I've no idea how I'm going to manage to leave Rhin behind without feeling like an ass).
Actually game checked your Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma all the time in many dialogues and would give you new options if you had enough or said right things.
I am not sure how often it checked other 3 stats or if ever.
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2014
Messages
3,819
A distinction should be made between choices that are made purely by the player, and those choices that are dependent on the way you've built your character, definitely.
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
2,714
I don't know how you can have missed this 'trend' clearly dominating the RPG discussions the last couple of years.

Do you think it is a bad trend? Undesirable perhaps?
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
2,714
Do you think it is a bad trend? Undesirable perhaps?

That wasn't how the topic emerged, but if you're asking, it doesn't really matter what you do as long as it's quality it'll find an audience.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Damn. Torment just released on the Nvidia Shield. Crazy! I hope this leads to more RPGs like it on Shield.
 
Just read it. The review seems perfect for the codex site, very drama-queenish…I browsed some of the comments to the review over there, one stood out when they commented -- "… so he could get to the next pretentious punchline."

Drama queen level 10 stuff. This is the kind of stuff that the review sounds like - "The classic rpg world is ending, inxile has singlehandedly caused it to fail, thanks to their monumental failure of this game. This epic disaster will sink the inxile company to the bottom of the sea, and they will take the whole old school rpg revival era with it." (rolls eyes) gimme a break
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
2,246
Location
Pacific NorthWest, USA!
Well, apart from Driftmoon being quite old at this point AND much too comical for many/most people, Tyranny was ripped apart much like Tides is being ripped apart.

IN FACT, every modern attempt to make an RPG that isn't absolutely 100% indie has been torn apart by the very people claiming companies stopped making games for THEM and have bitched and moaned for a couple decades. Wonder why they don't make more of them? LOL Divinity:Original Sin, Might and Magic X, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Tyranny and the 3 Shadowrun games have, at one point or another, all been torn apart by people who claim that Baldur's Gate can never be beat, and everyone ignores real RPGs.

Now, if you really think there isn't a game amongst those mentioned that even comes close to matching a Baldur's Gate, then your rose-tinted glasses are thick as fuck. Seriously, nostalgia is great and all, but if you played those games today as new games(not the updated versions by Beamdog, which also have been attacked horribly) you'd be tearing them apart as well, mark my words. At this point, the only conclusion that can be reached is, you don't want to be happy or have good RPGs made, you just want reasons to complain and be angry.


Edit: Hell, I can just see it. People angry that you can change classes at will in PS:T "It makes the choice of class meaningless if you can change it anytime!!!", not to mention all the bugs these games had on release, which time and many patches have hidden.


Also, Prime Junta has been through the game twice AFAIK, and replayability was supposed to be a strong factor in both why the game is so short and why there's so much hidden text; the thing that supposedly stops it being a visual novel and what makes it more of a choose your own adventure come RPG.

I think this aspect helped tarnish his view of the game because of the way the game utilises group stats in conversations, in that whatever character you choose, what's available in conversations is still the same because your companions pick up any slack anyway and there's a difference between forcing yourself to choose different paths and not having paths open to you in the first place.

I can see why people who like nothing more than weird+text would enjoy a run of this game and how any experience in this format, from "it was ok" to "I loved this" could result from just going through the motions of the 'game'(?) once, but, the main selling point of this format is to have a different experience upon replay, that's what justifies shortening the length in favour of supposed depth.

From what I'm seeing and from Junta's review, everyone is having a fairly similar experience and not too many people are rushing to replay for alternative paths. And, to be fair, if you want a quick narrative game there's lots of choice out there (if you'll excuse the pun), all of which was made for a lot less money and also charges you less at the gate. (Some examples being Tyranny, Driftmoon, Age of Decadence and the upcoming No True With The Furies, just a few off the top of my head).

It would be great if someone on the watch currently in the "I love" category could have a second game where they try their best to have a different experience and see what changes become evident, that's an area that's surprisingly lacking from any of the positive-minded sources so far and where Junta has a big one-up in authority.

Will your review include multiple play-troughs Corwin? Or is it just from the once-off?
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
274
Location
Toronto, Canada
LOL Divinity:Original Sin, Might and Magic X, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Tyranny and the 3 Shadowrun games have, at one point or another, all been torn apart by people who claim that Baldur's Gate can never be beat, and everyone ignores real RPGs.

Now, if you really think there isn't a game amongst those mentioned that even comes close to matching a Baldur's Gate, then your rose-tinted glasses are thick as fuck. Seriously, nostalgia is great and all, but if you played those games today as new games(not the updated versions by Beamdog, which also have been attacked horribly) you'd be tearing them apart as well, mark my words. At this point, the only conclusion that can be reached is, you don't want to be happy or have good RPGs made, you just want reasons to complain and be angry.

You were saying things like you are grown up past angst childish phase in other posts - forgive me but to me you still sound like angst child.

People can have different opinion. I played Pillars of Eternity and I don't think it is anywhere near as good as Baldur's Gate - and yes, I am still playing old games like BG2, IWD1 and NWN1. Older titles have its own problems yes, but it is still miles above new titles in my opinion.

I want good RPGs as much as you, but trying to accept mediocre games as good games just doesn't sound right. I mean, what you are saying is, I have to change my view to try to like games that does not give me much joy. Sorry, but that sounds dumb.
 
You were saying things like you are grown up past angst childish phase in other posts - forgive me but to me you still sound like angst child.

As soon as he said 'LOL' I dismissed it as oh-so-superior angst child ...

But seriously - we all like and dislike different things. I have friends who LOVE RPG but can't 'get' the Gothic games, which are total faves of mine. I LOVE the NWN OC ... yeah, I know how THAT plays around here.

Life is too short to worry about convincing others that our opinions are the only ones tha matter.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
Well, apart from Driftmoon being quite old at this point AND much too comical for many/most people, Tyranny was ripped apart much like Tides is being ripped apart.

IN FACT, every modern attempt to make an RPG that isn't absolutely 100% indie has been torn apart by the very people claiming companies stopped making games for THEM and have bitched and moaned for a couple decades. Wonder why they don't make more of them? LOL Divinity:Original Sin, Might and Magic X, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Tyranny and the 3 Shadowrun games have, at one point or another, all been torn apart by people who claim that Baldur's Gate can never be beat, and everyone ignores real RPGs.

Now, if you really think there isn't a game amongst those mentioned that even comes close to matching a Baldur's Gate, then your rose-tinted glasses are thick as fuck. Seriously, nostalgia is great and all, but if you played those games today as new games(not the updated versions by Beamdog, which also have been attacked horribly) you'd be tearing them apart as well, mark my words. At this point, the only conclusion that can be reached is, you don't want to be happy or have good RPGs made, you just want reasons to complain and be angry.


Edit: Hell, I can just see it. People angry that you can change classes at will in PS:T "It makes the choice of class meaningless if you can change it anytime!!!", not to mention all the bugs these games had on release, which time and many patches have hidden.

I'll try and answer your points as best I can.

I didn't rip apart any of the games I listed. All games will have fanboys and fanhaters, always have and always will. Some companies deliberately bait controversy as a cheap means to gain free publicity. You'll notice that game sales very rarely correspond to what opinions people have on specialised forums and it takes a specific kind of dumb to get the mass morons to start hating on a game [see Mass Effect 3 ending, for example].

The only game I've been motivated to play and got the opportunity to review here recently was Serpents in the Staglands, a game which very closely matched my tastes, but even that had a fair few on the codex berate me for giving it 4 out 5. However, I don't view criticism as hate. That's where you're taking everything way too personally. Someone else's view that the game should be a 3 out of 5 at best, and for logical reasons they give, is as equally honest and understandable as me giving it 4 out of 5 with my own set of logical reasons. An independent observer is then free to decide which aspects of those opinions ring more true to them.

The reason why the Infinity Engine games are still revered and unchallenged for their niche is many-fold and mostly obvious, just as why every RPG since has not been able to match their ubiquity. Here are the bigger, more obvious, points:

1. The IE games were dedicated PC games. Single player PC games. They were also the AAA of their day and required large teams of developers with a huge (for then) budget.

From 2002 the investment money started moving to different niches, notably on-line multiplayer and MMOs, due to the WoW effect, and towards the console market due to Microsoft (the main driver of PC gaming) releasing the xbox (march 2002).

So the IE games, unwittingly, became the last batch of dedicated PC single player games with a AAA budget.

2. The mechanics of micromanagement.

The IE games depended heavily on micromanagement as the method to play them. There was no story mode, no quest markers, no streamlining generally. If you wanted to play well you had to take a deep interest in the rules of the game and manage your game skills at every opportunity. Consoles, on the other hand, tend to promote twitch gameplay where it's more about your personal hand-eye co-ordination than fiddling about in sub-menus.

3. Dungeons and Dragons.

They were the last [fully competent] games to be released using the dungeons and dragons rule set. There were a few others here and there after, such as Neverwinter nights (which was more about the toolset than the single player campaign), Temple of Elemental Evil (which was released in a buggy and unfinished state) and Knights of the chalice (a micro-budget independent game), but the IE games were the last in a long line (going back to the 1980s) of D&D and D&D-like PC single player games.

As you can see, this list is getting long already, and I've only just touched the surface, the tip of the iceburg.

So the gap in the market has been, for 10 years, from 2003 to 2012, just a dedicated single player PC cRPG with a decent budget. There have been a few decent attempts in that time, such as the German Drakensang rule set games, but for their best game, the River of Time, they didn't translate it to English for years, so it didn't even have a chance.

With the arrival of kickstarter, the niche could be filled and, since 2012 lots of excellent cRPGs have flowed through the system. But the same problem keeps emerging, that as soon as someone applies a decent budget to a game then people start amending the game to focus more on multiplayer and consoles, which is not what the aforementioned niche is looking for. Pillars of Eternity was an excellent attempt at the niche, but it was very much a first attempt and, don't forget, even today, Baldur's Gate 1 has a worse reputation than Baldur's Gate 2. But if people don't point out what things they're interested in via visible criticism, how would a developer ever know what to implement in order to attract that niche.

You are right that whatever gets made will face criticism, because that's always been the case. Rose tinted glasses don't claim that every game of the past was better, what they do is permit us to remember the good stuff from the past and forget the rubbish. They give selective memory. By applying selective memory one can, hopefully, build on the shoulders of giants and perpetually improve a product (see cars, aeroplanes, virtual reality etc etc). It is, ironically, far more damaging to the hobby in the long term if all you do is praise whatever comes to the fore, because it allows bad designs to perpetuate unhindered. A silent niche might as well not exist, because no-one knows they exist, so wont ever cater to them and games will just drift ever further from their preferences.

Your entire rhetoric is unhelpful, repressive and dictatorial, not to mention hyperbolic and blasé. You're the proverbial dog howling at the moon who can't differentiate the difference between legitimate concern and drooling hatred.

But I think you know all this.

I think you just enjoy strutting your stuff. If this wasn't the case then your post might have actually talked about the games rather than simply making personal attacks on other posters. It was a good rant though, I hope its helped relieve whatever tension you are currently needing to release.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
1. The IE games were dedicated PC games. Single player PC games. They were also the AAA of their day and required large teams of developers with a huge (for then) budget.

From 2002 the investment money started moving to different niches, notably on-line multiplayer and MMOs, due to the WoW effect, and towards the console market due to Microsoft (the main driver of PC gaming) releasing the xbox (march 2002).

So the IE games, unwittingly, became the last batch of dedicated PC single player games with a AAA budget.
Not really the last batch at all, there were plenty of dedicated PC single-player RPG's with AAA (or AAA'ish) budget after the Infinity games… Just to name a few that come to mind quickly: Arcanum, Vampire: Bloodlines, ToEE (which you mentioned), Wizardry 8, Gothic series, NWN1, NWN2, The Witcher 1, Fallout Tactics, Lionheart, Might & Magic IX, Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor… There are many more. They just didn't reach the same heights…not for the most part anyway (the first few games on my list do have something of a following).

And then, as you mentioned, the Xbox revolution came along where all these guys who'd been developing Windows games realized they could make lots more cash by releasing them for the Xbox at the same time - since the Xbox used the same DirectX API as Windows, they didn't have to increase their workload / knowledge-base much to do this, but they did have to start changing their games to appeal to the much "dumber" console audience. (In quotes because I mean the console audience has an appetite for dumber games, not that the people are necessarily dumber, although that was quite likely true as well.)

Anyway, those early 2000's games just weren't as good as the 90's games which is why they aren't remembered as fondly. They weren't generally on the level of stuff that people usually cite as the "peak" like Baldur's Gate 1/2, Fallout 1/2, Planescape: Torment, Ultima VII, and so forth. (Personally I'd also throw Jagged Alliance 2 in there…)

The new stuff that has been coming out (with the possible exception of Divinity: Original Sin) isn't on that 90's level either, but in many cases I don't think it's that far off. Which, as I read it, was basically what PegasusOrgans was saying. Yeah, these newer games don't match up to the 90's classics, but they aren't complete shit either…much of what you read on forums etc is over-reaction and/or rose-tinted glasses.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,469
Not really the last batch at all, there were plenty of dedicated PC single-player RPG's with AAA (or AAA'ish) budget after the Infinity games… Just to name a few that come to mind quickly: Arcanum, Vampire: Bloodlines, ToEE (which you mentioned), Wizardry 8, Gothic series, NWN1, NWN2, The Witcher 1, Fallout Tactics, Lionheart, Might & Magic IX, Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor… There are many more. They just didn't reach the same heights…not for the most part anyway (the first few games on my list do have something of a following).

And then, as you mentioned, the Xbox revolution came along where all these guys who'd been developing Windows games realized they could make lots more cash by releasing them for the Xbox at the same time - since the Xbox used the same DirectX API as Windows, they didn't have to increase their workload / knowledge-base much to do this, but they did have to start changing their games to appeal to the much "dumber" console audience. (In quotes because I mean the console audience has an appetite for dumber games, not that the people are necessarily dumber, although that was quite likely true as well.)

Anyway, those early 2000's games just weren't as good as the 90's games which is why they aren't remembered as fondly. They weren't generally on the level of stuff that people usually cite as the "peak" like Baldur's Gate 1/2, Fallout 1/2, Planescape: Torment, Ultima VII, and so forth. (Personally I'd also throw Jagged Alliance 2 in there…)

The new stuff that has been coming out (with the possible exception of Divinity: Original Sin) isn't on that 90's level either, but in many cases I don't think it's that far off. Which, as I read it, was basically what PegasusOrgans was saying. Yeah, these newer games don't match up to the 90's classics, but they aren't complete shit either…much of what you read on forums etc is over-reaction and/or rose-tinted glasses.

I'll try and respond as best I can.

Arcanum - released 2001
Vampire: Bloodlines - released 2004
ToEE (which you mentioned) - released 2003, unfinished.
Wizardry 8 - released 2001
Gothic series - Released 2001, 2002
NWN1 - prioritised tool set over single player campaign
NWN2 - Not AAA & see above.
The Witcher 1 - "Action role-playing, hack and slash"
Fallout Tactics - Released 2001
Lionheart - released 2003, unfinished.
Might & Magic IX - Released 2002
Divine Divinity - Released 2002
Beyond Divinity - Released 2004
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor - Released 2001.

The IE games: 1998 - 2002

Of your list only four games post-date the IE games and the 2002 switch in priorities, and, surprise surprise, 2 of those were released unfinished, as in funding ceased. If you think Beyond Divinity and Vampire are games that qualify then I guess you have something, but having them drop in 2004 is hardly filling the decade, I suspect they were 'in development' in 2002. Witcher 1? Why not go the whole hog and include the Elder Scrolls games, or the Dragon Age games?

You seem to have your years a bit mixed up so I can't really respond to anything regarding "matching 90s stuff", but pegasus was replying to me specifically and I honestly don't think I've been overreacting to anything. I mean, how vague can you get "much of what you read on forums is XYZ", I mean, that's just pure hyperbole isn't it, not to mention completely irrelevant to this site. I made a perfectly valid point about character classes and I get ranted to with hyperbole about how some people on a forum somewhere once upset pegasus in some way, yeah, right, thanks for that.

And I know it makes for great short-hand to use phrases like rose tinted spectacles, but like any phrase, if it's thrown around like confetti and in places where it's entirely unhelpful then it becomes meaningless. The IE games were and still are great games, there's no rose-tinted spectacles involved aside from remembering they were good. The Sistine Chapel isn't viewed through rose tinted spectacles just because its old. The rose tinted spectacles are people imagining that criticism didn't happen in the past when its always happened and always will, and the irony of the use of the word "overreaction" is that her post was massive overreaction, not any of mine, so who was she talking to? Certainly not me, and yet my quote was in there.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
I was referring only to BG1/2 and PS:T, since I don't know of many who mention IWD when talking about the best RPG's of all time etc. But fair enough, you did say "Infinity Engine". Still, at a minimum, the games I mentioned would qualify as "co-last-batch", it wasn't just IE alone. So it doesn't really change my point much, if any.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,469
Also, didn't include DA:O or Morrowind because they both had console releases simultaneous with, or very soon after, the PC release. Witcher 1 was PC only.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,469
I was referring only to BG1/2 and PS:T, since I don't know of many who mention IWD when talking about the best RPG's of all time etc. But fair enough, you did say "Infinity Engine". Still, at a minimum, the games I mentioned would qualify as "co-last-batch", it wasn't just IE alone. So it doesn't really change my point much, if any.

You've completely lost me. By saying the IE games were the last batch of games, blah, blah, blah, I meant they were the biggest draw, which they quite obviously were, they were the standard to aspire to at the point at which that niche ended. Yes, that does include the IWD games, I have no idea why you'd assume those to be excluded, I'm completely baffled by that statement, unless you're just trying to wind me up. You mention games like Lionhart and Ruins of whatever but don't picture IWD as an IE game? I mean, wtf?

It's like I forgot to mention your favourite game and now you feel the need to trash the post on some micro-point that doesn't even change my point?
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Also, didn't include DA:O or Morrowind because they both had console releases simultaneous with, or very soon after, the PC release. Witcher 1 was PC only.

Indeed, Witcher is a unique beast isn't it...
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
You've completely lost me. By saying the IE games were the last batch of games, blah, blah, blah, I meant they were the biggest draw, which they quite obviously were, they were the standard to aspire to at the point at which that niche ended. Yes, that does include the IWD games, I have no idea why you'd assume those to be excluded, I'm completely baffled by that statement, unless you're just trying to wind me up. You mention games like Lionhart and Ruins of whatever but don't picture IWD as an IE game? I mean, wtf?
Uh, ok, but that's not how I read your point at all. I read your "point 1" as basically saying that the IE games were remembered as the peak of PC RPG's because they were the "last batch" of AAA PC RPG's before people moved over to console-focused development. Based on what you're saying now, I obviously must have misunderstood your real point, but I think if you read back on what you wrote, perhaps you can see how I might have interpreted it that way.

Now with my interpretation in mind, clearly IWD2's 2002 release is mostly irrelevant since nobody talks about the IWD games as the "peak" anyway, really just BG1/2 and PS:T. Furthermore, there were plenty of other PC AAA RPG's being made at the same time as (and even after) the IE games, as I pointed out, so the reason people remember them as the peak can't just be the "last batch of AAA" thing - there has to be more to it.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,469
Uh, ok, but that's not how I read your point at all. I read your "point 1" as basically saying that the IE games were remembered as the peak of PC RPG's because they were the "last batch" of AAA PC RPG's before people moved over to console-focused development. Based on what you're saying now, I obviously must have misunderstood your real point, but I think if you read back on what you wrote, perhaps you can see how I might have interpreted it that way.

Now with my interpretation in mind, clearly IWD is mostly irrelevant since nobody talks about those 2 games as the "peak" anyway, really just BG1/2 and PS:T. Furthermore, there were plenty of other PC AAA RPG's being made at the same time at (and even after) the IE games, as I pointed out, so the reason people remember them as the peak can't just be the "last batch of AAA" thing.

They were the peak at the point when people moved over to etc, yes. Did you expect me to list every tom, dick and harry wannabe rpg to avoid confusion?

IWD is irrelevant in your eyes? Well, we learn something new every day don't we. I guess you really have been visiting some pretty dumb forums. "nobody talks about those 2 games as the "peak"" eh, wow, well I guess what people talk about is more relevant to you than a purely benign factual statement like "The IE games", yes, I clearly must have used confusing language.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Pegasus only mentioned BG and PS:T in his post. The reason he mentioned them is because people point to them very frequently as the greatest of all time - the same doesn't generally happen for IWD. In replying to his rant, you changed the wording from his BG & PS:T to "Infinity Engine". I made an assumption which seemed reasonable to me at the time.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,469
Back
Top Bottom