Torment: ToN First impressions

I don't believe there's any XP for actually winning Combat. It comes from completing the quest in which the combat occurred.

Well there can be some penalty in dying in that you have to retrace your steps in some cases - especially if dying inside your own mind which occurred twice last night. I am coming across a bit more combat now and paying the price for a weak combat build. Worse I really only have 3 on my team as I went and got Rhin and she makes such a fuss if I try to remove her I had to sigh and let her stay (when I was going to replace her with Ettris (sp?) who is a glaive and far more useful.

So had to fight three powerful warriors inside my mind for a quest and got utterly wiped out. The assassin is my only good warrior - she kills most things in a hit or two. But everyone else is mostly useless in combat. So I hit a block at the moment if I want to continue that quest line. Don't really have any good cyphers as I have explored almost the entire map - hoping the Order of Truth, the only place I have not been yet, will have something to help.

So fair warning - not a lot of combat but at the same time, for me at least, not focusing on combat in character build has a price of hitting a road block. But I am going to take a few more stabs at it today - last night I was rather frustrated and it was also late as I had been playing for just over 3 hours (now have 11 hours played).

I may just have to boot Rhin and hope it doesn't come back to haunt me later - as I think I could win the fight with a Glaive on my side.

Again, combat aside, loving the game completely! I am slowly getting a handle on combat but admit I am not a big fan of this style. I tend to like how it was done in BG - more of a pseudo turn-based with a queue. Also if I play through the game again totally going with a Nano-combat styled character versus this wimpy silver-tongued jack of all trades.

wolfgrimdark said:

I may just have to boot Rhin and hope it doesn't come back to haunt me later - as I think I could win the fight with a Glaive on my side.

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Can't you just swap them out for that quest? I assume companions go back to where you found them when leaving the party, no?

JDR13 said:

Can't you just swap them out for that quest? I assume companions go back to where you found them when leaving the party, no?

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Rhin appears to be someone extra special so not sure what it will do. By that I mean all the other companions just say some something basic "Oh well then I will head back to X. If you want to party again come get me."

But not Rhin. She went into a fit and I kept getting multiple dialogues to try and convince her it would be for the best. She started crying and begging to stay and what not. I have some ideas about all of this based on some lore I read in-game but no real answers … only that she could be both good and bad in the end.

Anyhow the point is if she were a basic companion I would just swap them. But she seems to be something more. I may do it anyhow.

Still I am a gold tide character type (good guy) and since I rescued her from slavers and made a point of convincing (persuading) her to join up with me in the first place … I feel like a real schmuck if I then kicked her out. Even if only for once quest … as I don't get the dialogue to tell her it is temporary.

I may have to though - going to Order of Truth and then will try the fight a few more times. I got her a crossbow and she is very good at hiding so maybe she can stay in the back and do something useful

EDIT: And yes I could probably google it but I hate spoilers -especially for a dialogue driven game like this where choice and story are the most important. So going to start it up now and see what I can do.

EDIT TWO: Solved it. Seems I was missing one part of the puzzle. Once I had that I was finally able to get a persuade (versus fight) option. I am very good at persuading so that got me out of the combat.

On a side note on 13 hours now and Still in the first city and have yet to go to the docks area where the ships are - heading there next. I have two quests left but stuck on them for the moment so time for more exploring.

What's your current setup wolfgrimdark? I kept Rhin with me until it was time to keep my promise, and it worked out fine. She gets a pretty beefy skill around tier 3 if you're willing to actively use cyphers (I'm not big on using consumables in any game; I tend to just hoard it).

At any rate, my party lacked a bit of muscle: In addition to Rhin, my main character was a Nano who had specialized in all sorts of mental stuff and diplomacy. It is possible to work around such limitations though, as the game actually does have int based ranged weapons and such.

JDR13 said:

It doesn't sound like there's much of a penalty for dying. I find that disappointing if that's the case. It's not a deal-breaker or anything, I just prefer when there's more consequence for losing a battle.

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There are quite a few places where dying is permanent. It's actually a bit of a problem - the game is so lenient at times, and then it'll throw you into some combat situation that you just can't handle because you don't have a single character focused on actual combat. I found it a bit frustrating, but eventually shifted my focus towards combat after a while, which helped greatly.

Here's a good tip for everyone: Have at least one character with very high int "bonus" (not number of points, but the other one that increases base use), and that character can bypass almost any social situation, even without all the right social skills. The same actually goes for speed and might - the flat "bonus" thing is massive, and will help out in combat as well (basically means that if you have a "speed" weapon equipped, you'll start out at 3-4 points invested every action, without actually spending the points). Increasing the base use is much, much stronger than number of points.

Finished the game with 24 hours on the clock - I missed a few minor side-quests because I left areas which cancelled them But overall I still think the game was shortish...and yes, I didn't read every single bit of text - some of it was fluff which didn't really add much. I loved the setting though, especially the Bloom.

I do think combat happened more frequently than they suggested though! And you couldn't always ( I think) talk your way out of it. I had Aligern, the glowing fighter guy and Tybir, with my character as a nano. Most fights were not very challenging (or normal). I didn't always like the environmental 'puzzle' aspects...I really don't think combat is the place to explore a puzzle. My nano ended up with an 6/11/22 (str/speed/int) and effort of 6. So most tasks were auto wins if int-based. I could also mete out large amounts of nano damage and my nano was carrying 7/8 cyphers with lots of 'boom'. I found that there were more than enough to go around, especially if you explored a lot and fiddled with some oddities.

Overall I found the experience 'good', but somewhat short.

Yes, I enjoyed it as well (also done, by the way, and for once I'm not replaying). The start was certainly lacking in combat, but it got quite a bit more combat heavy later on. That's actually not a good thing, as combat really is not its greatest strength (to say the least).

As for the overall size of it? I'm fine with it. Given the cumbersome combat, I suspect it would get tedious if it was any longer. People also exaggerate the size of PST, as it's the shortest IE game. It just contained quests and puzzles that were harder to solve, so it felt longer.

Note: I'm not arguing that ToN is the size of PST; it's not. I'm just saying that PST wasn't as massive as certain reviewers and such seem to think. That's nostalgia talking.

Anyway, both games are carried by original settings and interesting characters. I feel it lives up to the Planescape name in that regard, but the main character/story was not quite as solid.

.Maylander said:

I'm just saying that PST wasn't as massive as certain reviewers and such seem to think That's nostalgia talking.

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More like the-amount-of-unique-memorable-content talking .

PST is by far the most filler-free IE game - it features very little in terms of filler/trash combat, especially in comparison with Icewind Dale games, and there's very little of dead time of walking from place to place, especially when compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and its wilderness areas.

Moreover, since likely majority of play time is spent in dialogues, faster reading can cut down the length considerably - but that doesn't diminish the amount of unique content the game has one bit.

As far as size of actual unique content goes, PST is second only to BG2 imo.

Maylander said:

People also exaggerate the size of PST, as it's the shortest IE game.

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Play time is often a poor metric to compare game sizes and it particularly tends to do a lot of disservice to filler-light, eventful, brimming-with-unique-content games like PST (and it's precisely the kind of mindset that encourages developers to load their games with filler).

DeepO said:

More like the-amount-of-unique-memorable-content talking .

PST is by far the most filler-free IE game - it features very little in terms of filler/trash combat, especially in comparison with Icewind Dale games, and there's very little of dead time of walking from place to place, especially when compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and its wilderness areas.

Moreover, since likely majority of play time is spent in dialogues, faster reading can cut down the length considerably - but that doesn't diminish the amount of unique content the game has one bit.

As far as size of actual unique content goes, PST is second only to BG2 imo.


Play time is often a poor metric to compare game sizes and it's particularly tends to do a lot of disservice to filler-light, eventful, brimming-with-unique-content games like PST (and it's precisely the kind of mindset that encourages developers to load their games with filler).

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That's true, but in that regard ToN is actually pretty big. Very little filler. Almost none. So people can't claim that ToN is too short, but PST is huge. That doesn't add up. This is an either/or kind of thing. PST is just slightly bigger than ToN, mostly because of more difficult puzzles/quests and more combat.

Maylander said:

That's true, but in that regard ToN is actually pretty big. Very little filler. Almost none.

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Agreed with that, though I wonder how the snail pace of combat affects the impression if one tries not to avoid any of it.
(Actually, I've found a ton of dialogues in ToN to be pointless filler, but that's not quite the type of filler relevant to this exchange.)

Maylander said:

PST is just slightly bigger than ToN, mostly because of more difficult puzzles/quests and more combat.

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I'll take your word for it, since I ended up rushing through Tides on the grounds of being bored/annoyed by most of it (to me it felt about half PST's size).

DeepO said:

Agreed with that, though I wonder how the snail pace of combat affects the impression if one tries not to avoid any of it.
(Actually, I've found a ton of dialogues in ToN to be pointless filler, but that's not quite the type of filler relevant to this exchange.)


I'll take our word for it, since I ended up rushing through Tides on the grounds of being bored/annoyed by most of it (to me it felt about half PST's size).

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Considering I've only played through it once, there might very well be a very different amount of combat depending on choices. Cut some of the drawn out fights and I suppose it might feel very short.

DeepO said:

PST is by far the most filler-free IE game - it features very little in terms of filler/trash combat, especially in comparison with Icewind Dale games, and there's very little of dead time of walking from place to place, especially when compared to Baldur's Gate 1 and its wilderness areas.

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While that may be true to some degree, I still found the combat in PST to be less enjoyable than the other IE games. I didn't feel like there was enough enemy variety by comparison. Same with weapons/armor and loot.

Having a mage wielding a hammer in d&d, having an entropy blade that counts as any weapon you're proficient with, finding two instakill fumes spell and adding one on TNO and second on gith, getting different teeth for morte, etc, definetly not enough of variety.

Well I'm sorry. I'm aware to some people only combat matters. To some others like me, combat is the least important thing in a RPG. There is the answer why PST is #1. Or was.

I'm not sure if there was supposed to be a point there, but I often wonder that about many of your posts.

I guess it's just splitting the hair.

Maylander said:

What's your current setup wolfgrimdark? I

...

Here's a good tip for everyone: Have at least one character with very high int "bonus" (not number of points, but the other one that increases base use), and that character can bypass almost any social situation, even without all the right social skills. The same actually goes for speed and might - the flat "bonus" thing is massive, and will help out in combat as well (basically means that if you have a "speed" weapon equipped, you'll start out at 3-4 points invested every action, without actually spending the points). Increasing the base use is much, much stronger than number of points.

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I am playing a Jack with points in mainly dialogue stuff - amanasia (or whatever that "recall past memory" word is), persuasion, deception ... plus light weapons and just got a point in concentration. I am not big on consumables either as it means micro-managing more but finding I have to to some degree.

I am still in the main "city" and haven't yet taken a ship - may do that tonight. As of right now I am on 16 hours played.

For followers I have the lady with her sisters, the female Assassin and Rhin (not really keen on her as a character and would like to get rid of her - besides being useless she is very annoying. I don't like whiny characters. I only took her into the party because I thought I had to do that to finish her quest ... which I had thought would be over shortly like most of the others. But oh no she stays on and cries like a baby if I try to dismiss her. But my OCD keeps her to find out who/what she is and solve her quest).

Anyhow I was able to finish another part of the quest I had missed and then was able to use persuasion to find a non-combat ending to the problem. I gained another level and got some cyphers which then let me succeed with fighting the sorrows minions later on.

What you are referring to with the whole "bonus" thing. What is that? Do you mean "edge" points where you can increase using effort without cost because of the egde?

wolfgrimdark said:

What you are referring to with the whole "bonus" thing. What is that? Do you mean "edge" points where you can increase using effort without cost because of the egde?

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Right! Edge! So let's say you're Speed based, and you put a point in Edge. Now every Speed action is always done with 1x point Speed investment, without actually spending the point. It applies to combat too. It's easy to get almost 100% accuracy on combat actions by default with the right amount of Edge. I went with Intellect myself, and found a decent Intellect weapon (they're rare, but they do exist). That basically gave me 100% accuracy in combat + 100% success chance on any Intellect based situation, such as most social skill requirements etc. Occasionally I had to spend a point, but that was rare.

As for the setup: It is indeed rather lacking in the physical department. If you keep your current setup, you will likely have to take full advantage of Rhin and her Cypher skills later on. Tybir or Erritis would have made life quite a bit easier, but I assume they're far behind on XP by now (there's no scaling on companions in ToN). Are you getting close to Tier 3?

JDR13 said:

It doesn't sound like there's much of a penalty for dying. I find that disappointing if that's the case. It's not a deal-breaker or anything, I just prefer when there's more consequence for losing a battle.

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In PS:T dying was part of the game (AFAIR there was at least one occasion you had to die). From what you say, I assume death is nothing more than a random inconvenience in this game?

pibbur who is alive and in principle kicking, but not sure who to kick. Due to the likelihood of severe repercussions, the wife and daughters are off limits.

PS. I haven't started the game yet, like others I'm considering replaying PS:T first, to catch the references. Graphically PS:T is too pixellated for me on my 24 inch monitor, but it looks quite good on my much smaller, 13 inch MS Surface. DS.

Maylander said:

Right! Edge! So let's say you're Speed based, and you put a point in Edge. Now every Speed action is always done with 1x point Speed investment, without actually spending the point. It applies to combat too. It's easy to get almost 100% accuracy on combat actions by default with the right amount of Edge. I went with Intellect myself, and found a decent Intellect weapon (they're rare, but they do exist). That basically gave me 100% accuracy in combat + 100% success chance on any Intellect based situation, such as most social skill requirements etc. Occasionally I had to spend a point, but that was rare.

As for the setup: It is indeed rather lacking in the physical department. If you keep your current setup, you will likely have to take full advantage of Rhin and her Cypher skills later on. Tybir or Erritis would have made life quite a bit easier, but I assume they're far behind on XP by now (there's no scaling on companions in ToN). Are you getting close to Tier 3?

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I am pretty close to Tier 3 now I believe. I can put up with Rhin and will just make her my Cypher user. I had Erritis (dismissed him to make room for Rhin) and really loved his chatter, especially with the assassin. But I don't want to give up either the assassin or female nano as I like them both. If I ever do a second play through I know it will be without Rhin, no matter what her quest turns out to be as long as it is optional, and go with Errtis.

double post