Fable 2 - Plot Failures @ Twenty Sided

Dhruin

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A two-piece "scourging" of Fable II's plot is up at Twenty Sided. Here's a bit from Part 1, with the designers described as "bad railroaders" (huge spoilers apply:
A bad railroader will use their power over the player character to force the PC to do things they would never choose to do on their own. Their (mostly illusory) autonomy is negated so that their character can be conscripted in service of the plot. The player will be forced to ally themselves with people they want to kill, surrender when they would rather fight, show mercy when they would rather have vengeance, blunder into obvious traps, and listen to villainous diatribes rather than simply taking action. This is Fable 2. The game touts “choices with consequences”, but the choices you are allowed to make in-game are never germane to the plot. They’re usually artificially binary good / evil decisions that have no impact on the main story. You won’t be allowed to make any choices that deviate from your predetermined role as a clueless mute doormat.
...and a link to Part 2.
More information.
 
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Okay, now he's just getting pedantic. Sure, there is a level of validity to his points but once you start nitpicking at ANY PLOT, you'll be able to find inconsistencies, holes and shortcuts.

This is true for any medium, be it books, movies or games. It seems that Shamus lacks two fundamental abilities (or what the games fails to inspire in Shamus if you prefer) in order for him to enjoy the game:

1) "Go with the flow" - don't try to enforce your own ideas of what the story/game should play like. By doing so you'll always be disappointed, at least until true AI emerges with a story/plot that dynamically adapts itself to your playing style and choices.

2) "Suspension of disbelief" - if you can't disconnect yourself from the realism of the real world and keep trying to apply every day logic to a fantasy world/story then you'll be disappointed yet again.

I know we all look for different things and appreciate different aspects of movies, books, games, music, etc and Shamus is of course entitled to his opinion but I still say that if he would apply the same kind of dedication to pick apart even tiny irrelevant details to ANY game that he's used to pick apart Fable 2 in these articles, then he'll be able to find countless flaws in all of them.

If that is his way, then I do indeed pity him for not being able to take joy in any thing before his urge to pick things apart takes over. But then again, it's his choice to do as he please.
 
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It seems that Shamus lacks two fundamental abilities (or what the games fails to inspire in Shamus if you prefer) in order for him to enjoy the game:

1) "Go with the flow" -
2) "Suspension of disbelief" -

Since I've not played it I can't comment first hand, but as I said in the other thread I heard similar criticisms from someone else - someone I consider *very* able to 'go with the flow'.

Personally I find that the ability to 'suspend disbelief' and 'go with the flow' depends largely on whether or not the game grabs something in you. It is clear that Shamus is a ' main quest' lover, so he can never get past his hatred of the main quest and characters.

There are many times people have said I'm either overly critical or overly forgiving, and I relate it back to that. It is what happens - either something hooks you or pisses you off in the first hour of playing, and you are pretty much stuck there for the rest of the game.
 
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Wow. When I read what he said about "The player will be forced to ally themselves with people they want to kill, surrender when they would rather fight, show mercy when they would rather have vengeance, blunder into obvious traps, and listen to villainous diatribes rather than simply taking action." I immediately thought of <dramatic pause> Baldur's Gate II.

Now I love BG2 but the story structure despite it's *apparent* freedom is not free at all. I played a paladin the first time through and I was forced to deal with the thieves in town. What the heck? Well, ok, I have an alternative. I can instead deal with a bunch of vampires. Whoops...
 
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Okay, now he's just getting pedantic. Sure, there is a level of validity to his points but once you start nitpicking at ANY PLOT, you'll be able to find inconsistencies, holes and shortcuts.

Exactly.

Nitpick plot elements about a game by put-my-foot-in-my-mouth-yet-again Peter Molyneux, well that's hip and cool.

Nitpick plot elements about a game considered largley a classic like say, Ultima 7, well that's just endearing.

I'm not a huge fan of the Fable series and I am a big fan of the classic Ultima series. But I can still spot a 'LOOK AT ME bash a high profile game' piece when I see one.

Fable 2 isn't perfect and I consider it only a bit above average in terms of entertainment value. Still it's a fun game.
 
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Now I love BG2 but the story structure despite it's *apparent* freedom is not free at all. I played a paladin the first time through and I was forced to deal with the thieves in town. What the heck? Well, ok, I have an alternative. I can instead deal with a bunch of vampires. Whoops...

You have another alternative: you can abandon your childhood friend to her fate and forget about your murdered comrades and wander around aimlessly. Now do you really think your paladin would make that choice over dealing with the Shadow Thieves?
 
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You have another alternative: you can abandon your childhood friend to her fate and forget about your murdered comrades and wander around aimlessly. Now do you really think your paladin would make that choice over dealing with the Shadow Thieves?

In all honesty, I suspect you can do that in Fable 2, too. But just from reading the articles - I did not play Fable 2 myself - there appears to be at least a large quantitative difference in the required suspension of disbelieve between that game and Baldur's Gate II.

So yes, you will probably find some glitches in almost any story, particularly in the computer game genre, but the important questions for me are "how many" and "how obvious" - and from reading the articles I get the impression that you really have to turn off your brain altogether in order to be motivated by the main quest in Fable 2.

Personally, I find it difficult to enjoy a computer game with my brain shut down ;)
 
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I have to agree with fatBastard on this one - you really can do that to any plot, whether it's Lord of the Rings (books), Wheel of Time (books), The Matrix (movies), Baldur's Gate 2 (game) or Fable 2 (game). They all have holes once you start nitpicking, some more obvious than others.

I'm one of those guys that get easily annoyed by plot holes (lack of communication is an example of something that annoys me greatly - in almost every fantasy book I've ever read, they have great means of transporting information quickly, thus gaining obvious advantages, yet they never choose to).

However, I still think it's too much to ask to never have such holes. Some readers/gamers just spend too much time trying to find the holes. I'd be very surprised, and impressed, if I didn't find *any* holes whatsoever in a certain book/game/movie.
 
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I'm not a huge fan of the Fable series and I am a big fan of the classic Ultima series. But I can still spot a 'LOOK AT ME bash a high profile game' piece when I see one.

Better that than a "LOOK AT ME FELLATE A HIGH-PROFILE GAME" piece by far.
 
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I guess you meant "LOOK AT ME FELLATE A HIGH-PROFILE GAME BOX"
 
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It's a fun game and thats all that matters really.
 
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It's a fun game and thats all that matters really.

Are you insinuating that the answer to all criticism is 'I like it' or 'it is fun'? Because Shuamus states repeatedly that he has fun, but that the main story is flawed to the point of being brain-dead. Does that make him wrong? Is it inconsistent to like a game taht you tear apart in a review - I mean, I feel that way about Dungeon Lords.
 
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No, its basically that as a whole you have to judge it. Is it a bad plot? No. Does it work as a whole? Yes. I think that if it all fits together then thats really what matters. Is it brain dead? No.
 
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This game wins my annoying npcs of last year award. It's nicely made, but it's a piss take of the genre, while it only uses the conventions of what it's slating in the first place. Its 'fame simulator' use of 'normal people' as plebs is derogative enough to be amusing, but they end up just being bland and annoying after a short time. It's some rather mixed connotations to say the least.
 
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