NWN 2: Storm of Zehir - Review @ IGN AU

Indeed, I was comparing your hate of generic fantasy crap with that of Tolkien as that seems to be your take on the matter.

What was your point again? I continue to be confused. Perhaps my intellect simply isn't equal to the task of penetrating your oblique reasoning.

Oh, and if you're looking for roots of D&D then you are looking at mythology that you seem to know more about than anyone else anyway.

I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings?
 
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My point is that what you want is fine and good but right now you're digging in the wrong place.
 
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I see. I don't think that's necessarily true, but okay.

I'll add that I still haven't played SoZ yet, and my previous comments don't pertain to it in any way.
 
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Let's stop puffing out your chest, here. Playing games that don't give much attention to writing and story requires no more force of imagination than playing games that do.

Wow, who wee-wee'd in your Cheerios? :) I was not bragging on my own creative abilities. I was simply trying to understand why some people prefer to build a party of their own hand-picked adventurers, with their own handpicked backstory and some choose to allow the game designers to erect a story and characters for them. One is an attempt to recreate the feeling of party-based D&D... one is trying to recreate the feeling of watching a good fantasy movie. Different strokes...

Now, go back to eating your Cheerios and I'll go back to enjoying Storm of Zehir.
 
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I have not yet seen a game that would totally work without a story. Daggerfall was the closest attempt I played. For a true sandbox to remain interesting, it will IMO require a very complex conditional math/stat based system.
 
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Wow, who wee-wee'd in your Cheerios? :) I was not bragging on my own creative abilities. I was simply trying to understand why some people prefer to build a party of their own hand-picked adventurers, with their own handpicked backstory and some choose to allow the game designers to erect a story and characters for them. One is an attempt to recreate the feeling of party-based D&D... one is trying to recreate the feeling of watching a good fantasy movie. Different strokes...

How cute that you should ask, I don't make a habit of eating cereals drenched in piss--do you? I mean, if that's how you get your jollies...

(Yes, I'm aware that it's an expression. I just happen to think it's a stupid one. And "wee-wee"?)

I'm trying to understand the point of "handpicked backstory." I enjoyed IWD a lot, but I enjoyed it for the atmosphere and tactical challenges, not some random crap I made up for my party of combat units; I certainly didn't pretend that these units had personalities or anything resembling individual opinions. Your "handpicked backstory" is going to mean jack-squat. It usually has no bearing whatsoever on anything; you'd be lucky if an NPC acknowledges your class or race, never mind your alignment or your precious "my purple-eyed, silver-haired half-drow who dual-wields sabers fled the tyranny of his dark home and is dedicated to fighting the evil of his race" backstory. It rarely affects dialogue choices, and when it does it won't do so in any meaningful way like offering alternatives to solving a quest.
 
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Given that Gygax--you know, the guy who created the whole thing in the first place?--denied that he was inspired by LOTR/Tolkien, and there is plenty of evidence to support that, I'd take his word over... well, anybody's, really.

He claimed that in Dragon Magazine 95... having read the article, I have to tell you, that I don't believe him.
 
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Having read the sources he does cite as influences, I have to tell you I do believe him.
 
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How cute that you should ask,

Interesting, the use of the word "cute" in this kind of sentence ...

I will keep this in mind. I plan to use it, too.
 
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Having read the sources he does cite as influences, I have to tell you I do believe him.

D&D is full of rampant Tolkien-isms, though. In particular, orcs and halflings were original inventions by Tolkien -- that is, applying these particular words to these particular kinds of critters, and the very idea of both as organized peoples with cultures, mores, histories, and what not. Gygax himself may or may not have read and been inspired by JRRT, but if he wasn't, the influences got to him indirectly.
 
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Gygax said he drew on Tolkien as a marketing ploy rather than genuine inspiration, and all other things considered, that'd seem to hold true for all the reasons I've already stated. In spirit, D&D has little in common with the epic, take-itself-seriously-as-death tone of Tolkien and far, far more with traditional sword-and-sorcery.

D&D is full of rampant Tolkien-isms, though. In particular, orcs and halflings were original inventions by Tolkien -- that is, applying these particular words to these particular kinds of critters, and the very idea of both as organized peoples with cultures, mores, histories, and what not.

Tolkien's orcs have culture, mores, and history (history as in past civilizations or at the very least some sort of ancestral heritage, not "Morgoth tried to make sentient beings and sucked")? I know what you're getting at, but that's a rather unfortunate point of comparison. Tolkien blows at creating cultures outside of comfortable, familiar Anglo-centric derivatives.

Interesting, the use of the word "cute" in this kind of sentence ...

I will keep this in mind. I plan to use it, too.

I'm shaking in my very footwear.
 
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Having read the sources he does cite as influences, I have to tell you I do believe him.

Well, the question is not if he wasn't influenced by other sources as well, because he most likely was, the question is to what extent he was influenced by Tolkien. Given the similarities that exist between Tolkien fantasy and D&D I'd say Gygax was way more influenced by Tolkien than he was willing to admit at that point in time. I can imagine why he said he wasn't, and maybe it wasn't even Tolkien who really inspired him, but nonethless it's pretty obvious that he was influenced by him - even if it may have been only for commerical reasons. D&D isn't exactly Tolkien, but it isn't exactly Howard or Lovecraft either - it's pretty obvious that it's a mixture of all kinds of literary sources. It seems a bit odd to me to downplay Tolkien's role on the one hand, but on the other hand implement elements of his fiction just for the sake of commercial success.
When I read through the Dragon article today I simply had to smile and think: "Yeah sure..." - after all it was Gygax himself who wrote it. It just sounds strange that Gygax names all kinds of famous and not so famous authors as major and minor influences, but excludes the one most important writer that has become a synonym for modern fantasy. I guess it was an attempt to distinguish himself from Tolkien... which I can understand, but which wasn't really necessary since fiction is seldom truly original (and in a way what Gygax created was a new kind of fiction). He wanted to step out of Tolkiens deep shadow and the easiest way to do it was to say that he wasn't influenced by him.
 
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...
However.... there's a certain target group of over 30 (perhaps over 35?) gamers who find the party-based, free roaming, high adventure feel of this game very appealing. I fall into that camp. With a few patches to clean up the AI, tweak loading performance on the overland map, and clean up co-op play, this could be my favorite foray into Neverwinter Nights thusfar.

I don't think it'll ever compete with the games it is trying to emulate (such as, Pools of Radiance, Star Trail, etc.), because the original NWN2 engine simply wasn't meant to do this kind of gameplay. However, I consider this an exceptional "modification" of the NWN2 ruleset to create something wholly new and different. I'm having a blast with this one... so it manages to tap into that intangible "fun factor" for certain cRPGers, while alienating others.

I also fall into this age group, and I can say that the things that appeal to you, don't appeal to me - or many of the other friends I have who also play cRPG's and fall into the same age category ;-) there goes that theory I'm afraid (at least based on our small sample population). Oblivion started driving me mad, after I'd passed the "ooo, pretty!" stage. I just can't believe the overland map (exploration/random ecnounters etc) is the central purpose of SoZ - as you said, the NWN2 engine was not designed for open exploration, and the pics I've seen of the overland map are a pale shadow of the beautifully rendered explorable (but oh-so-repetitive) terrains and dungeons of Oblivion. I have no issue with random (or not-so-random!) encounters as you journey long distances (e.g. Arcanum) - but they should not, IMHO, play a central role or be a major selling point in a decent cRPG.
 
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I also fall into this age group, and I can say that the things that appeal to you, don't appeal to me

Yeah, I threw out age as a possibility, only because I was trying to find some common ground. I know folks personally in the appropriate age-range who prefer story-based and I know others who click through dialogue choices to get to the action... in other words, if you asked them what they remembered about BG2 they'd say "the spell effects" or "the cool battles."

So, this all simply comes down to personal preference, which affects people in a deep fashion (kind of like a person who prefers red sports cars to someone who prefers a blue pick-up truck). All other things being equal (as far as ethnic/social background, intelligence, education level), the one person just "enjoys" one product more over another.
 
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