Dragon Age 3 - Tidbits from ComicCon

In fact the one thing I really did love about the original Dragon Age was that almost every fight could be challenging and required me to think. That was certainly not remotely true in games like Planescape, BG, or KoTOR.

Are you aware DA:O used level scaling for enemies? That's the primary reason fights were never a cakewalk. Also, I'd say KotOR was far easier than the other games you named. There were a lot of difficult battles in BG, even in the latter stages of the game.
 
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Are you aware DA:O used level scaling for enemies? That's the primary reason fights were never a cakewalk. Also, I'd say KotOR was far easier than the other games you named. There were a lot of difficult battles in BG, even in the latter stages of the game.

I didn't know for sure, but I figured it was very likely given the options they give you to do the story arcs in whatever order you want. Alot of bioware games use level scaling, even BG2. It's just a question of how well it's done. DA:O (and BG2) did it very well.

I think BG/BG2 had better combat systems then KoTOR and Planescape certainly. As for difficulty it was really all over the board. BG was about 90% boring filler combat where you just let your fighters slaughter everything one by one. But the remaining 10% were really exciting, hard and memorable fights, and those tend to be what people really remember about the game.
 
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Surely you can't blame people who believed the hype about the fantastic campaign and bought it as a SP experience? Especially when BioWare's own figures showed only 10% of buyers took it online.

True.

I guess I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to NWN since they made up for the original OC with what they did acomplish and with the later expansions. Especially the last one. That one was a blast.

I don't recall many interviews, but the ones that stick out are where they were talking about how they were trying to bring a new experience to computer D&D. Funny, I didn't even use the online portion that much. I did a few times and even did those fully roleplaying ones, but it was too difficult. I couldn't write like the other guys in those modules. I never got that deep into "roleplaying" where we had to change the way we talked. I don't mind changing the way I would normally think, but making me change the way I talk is too difficult and silly, imo.

The premium content was nice as well. That reminds me, if anyone knows of a place to buy Infinite Dungeons or Wyvern Crown of Cormyr please post a link. I was able to find the Kingmaker expansion pack in a store a few years back (they still have a couple of copies to this day :)), but I was never able to find Infinite Dungeons. I really want to get that one. Wyvern Crown is secondary to that one.

I didn't buy the premium packs back then because I was still leery about buying things on the net and now I can't find them anywhere.
 
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I think BG/BG2 had better combat systems then KoTOR and Planescape certainly. As for difficulty it was really all over the board. BG was about 90% boring filler combat where you just let your fighters slaughter everything one by one. But the remaining 10% were really exciting, hard and memorable fights, and those tend to be what people really remember about the game.

BG1 didn't have any level scaling at all, and they still did a good job of keeping combat interesting up the end, for the most part. I've never played BG without TotSC installed, so maybe that's different, but in my experience, there was very little filler combat in places like Durlag's Tower and the Isle of Balduran. Even most areas in the general map of the Sword Coast contained multiple encounters that were challenging if you weren't prepared.

I don't think it really has anything to do with the combat system though. KotOR didn't have a bad system, they just didn't make the encounters challenging enough, imo.
 
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BG1 didn't have any level scaling at all, and they still did a good job of keeping combat interesting up the end, for the most part. I've never played BG without TotSC installed, so maybe that's different, but in my experience, there was very little filler combat in places like Durlag's Tower and the Isle of Balduran. Even most areas in the general map of the Sword Coast contained multiple encounters that were challenging if you weren't prepared.

I don't think it really has anything to do with the combat system though. KotOR didn't have a bad system, they just didn't make the encounters challenging enough, imo.

BG1 was much more linear then BG2 (or KoToR or DA:O) so it didn't really need level scaling as much. Level scaling is generally used more in games that give you the freedom to complete major parts of the game in whatever order you want. In terms of filler combat, my memory of BG2 is much better then my memory of BG 1. BG 2 had a ton of filler, perhaps BG 1 had less.

I agree that the problem with KoTOR combat was more lack of challenging encounters then the system itself, although I do think the system had limitations. KoTOR 1 was actually in serious need of level scaling (or better level scaling if it already had it). When you get the choice of which planet to go to first, the first planet you visit is actually somewhat challenging. By the time you get to the last planet though you've gotten so powerful that it is trivial.
 
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BG1 was much more linear then BG2 (or KoToR or DA:O) so it didn't really need level scaling as much. Level scaling is generally used more in games that give you the freedom to complete major parts of the game in whatever order you want. In terms of filler combat, my memory of BG2 is much better then my memory of BG 1. BG 2 had a ton of filler, perhaps BG 1 had less.

You kind of lost me when you said BG1 was more linear than BG2. Are you talking strictly story-wise? Most people would agree that BG1 was the less linear game, although imo neither game was linear to any great degree. It was also definitely not more linear than the other games you mention.

In regards to filler combat, I didn't find those games to have particularly more than what I'd expect from crpgs of that type. I guess when I think about it, pretty much all Bioware games have had quite a bit of filler encounters. That's not to say the encounter design is bad, it just depends how it's handled in terms of variety, and I thought it was done better in their earlier titles than in the more recent games.

I agree about KotOR though. I remember the game simply becoming a cakewalk once I got to certain point, although it's been too long to remember exactly when that point was. I do remember enjoying it a lot more in the early stages of the game, before I acquired lightsabers.
 
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BG 2 had a ton of filler, perhaps BG 1 had less.

I hardly remember any filler combats in BG2... at least not more so than any other rpgs. Only possible filler combat I can think about is when you get attacked while attempting to rest. You just don't get to see that type of battle anymore in newer games like DA because you regenerate hp and mana as soon as you finish battle.
 
Bioware have been about filler combat since forever. I don't remember a game from them that didn't have it. I admit, though, that I never got far in BG2 - but I'd be very surprised if it didn't have it.
 
Regarding linearity, BG2 had a large part of the game where your only goal was to raise money and where you had any number of different quests you could perform in whatever order you wanted. As a result you might be several levels higher when completing quest A then you would be for quest B. This is what I meant by less linear, the fact that there were quests that you had to perform but you could do them in any order and your power level could change dramatatically from one to the next. This was even more dramatic in KotOR with the planets, and DA:O with the treaties with the different races.

Regarding filler, BG2 had a ridiculous amount of filler combat. Did it have more filler combat then other games.....maybe not. Most RPGs have a ridiculous amout of filler combat. Most of the filler combat in BG2 was also easy and required no thought, but that's true in a lot of games as well. My whole point is that was why I was so impresed with the battles in DA:O, even the filler combats could still be fun and challenging and you could still lose.


You kind of lost me when you said BG1 was more linear than BG2. Are you talking strictly story-wise? Most people would agree that BG1 was the less linear game, although imo neither game was linear to any great degree. It was also definitely not more linear than the other games you mention.

In regards to filler combat, I didn't find those games to have particularly more than what I'd expect from crpgs of that type. I guess when I think about it, pretty much all Bioware games have had quite a bit of filler encounters. That's not to say the encounter design is bad, it just depends how it's handled in terms of variety, and I thought it was done better in their earlier titles than in the more recent games.

I agree about KotOR though. I remember the game simply becoming a cakewalk once I got to certain point, although it's been too long to remember exactly when that point was. I do remember enjoying it a lot more in the early stages of the game, before I acquired lightsabers.
 
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Regarding linearity, BG2 had a large part of the game where your only goal was to raise money and where you had any number of different quests you could perform in whatever order you wanted. As a result you might be several levels higher when completing quest A then you would be for quest B. This is what I meant by less linear, the fact that there were quests that you had to perform but you could do them in any order and your power level could change dramatatically from one to the next. This was even more dramatic in KotOR with the planets, and DA:O with the treaties with the different races.

Ok, so you were talking more about the plot direction then, as I suspected. I was thinking more in terms of being able to go in whatever direction you wanted on the map, and also exploring the individual levels themselves. BG was less linear in both of those aspects, particularly level design, compared to KotOR and DA:O.


Regarding filler, BG2 had a ridiculous amount of filler combat. Did it have more filler combat then other games…..maybe not. Most RPGs have a ridiculous amout of filler combat. Most of the filler combat in BG2 was also easy and required no thought, but that's true in a lot of games as well. My whole point is that was why I was so impresed with the battles in DA:O, even the filler combats could still be fun and challenging and you could still lose.

Well I guess it depends on what someone considers filler, but I tend to agree more with purpleblob about BG2. DA:O may have been more consistent when it came to challenge, mostly just due to the larger degree of level scaling, but I simply prefer to have more variety in the encounters. I still enjoyed DA:O, but the thing that stuck out to me about that game was how little variety there was in the bestiary. I can only enjoy killing Darkspawn and giant spiders for so long, regardless of the challenge. :)
 
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Bioware have been about filler combat since forever. I don't remember a game from them that didn't have it. I admit, though, that I never got far in BG2 - but I'd be very surprised if it didn't have it.

There´s a variety of aspects tied to the filler combat "problematic":
1. filler combat as something one feels a game would be better off without, because it serves no other purpose than to artificially extent play time, is tedious, boring, repetitive, etc.
2. filler combat as something as a "legitimate" design practice, aka something that makes the world feel more alive, maintains a sense of contrast, may cut into player´s resources in non-negligible ways in the long run, etc.
3. is it part of the mandatory game´s content, or is it only reserved for optional parts?
4. combat system, which may significantly affect how much time player has to devote to filler combat compared to non-filler and to what degree the presence of filler combat affects the overall game´s pacing

I´m replaying the whole "saga" right now (2/3 of ToB left) and while my perception is certainly skewed due to the mods installed (Sword Coast Stratagems and Ascension being the main culprits), taking the above points into consideration, I´d say neither game is a bad-kind-of-filler-heavy. There is a lot of combat filler, but such encounters are mostly quite justified to be in and are over fast. And when it comes to "mandatory" filler, there´s actually quite little of it (with SCS, more of the filler is pretty much mandatory because going against, say, Irenicus in Hell would be suicide without sufficient level/resources, but that´s a different matter).
That goes for BG1 + BG2 vanilla only though, they went overboard with combat in Throne of Bhaal.

Regarding linearity, BG2 had a large part of the game where your only goal was to raise money and where you had any number of different quests you could perform in whatever order you wanted. As a result you might be several levels higher when completing quest A then you would be for quest B. This is what I meant by less linear, the fact that there were quests that you had to perform but you could do them in any order and your power level could change dramatatically from one to the next.
And this is different from BG1 how?
The game´s main quest is linear in that there are certain mandatory plot points (chapter transitions) which you need to go through in a given order, but you´re given quite a leeway in what to do in-between or how to reach these points.
There´s a big amount of maps you can explore before even touching the main quest (and end up going against the Nashkel kobolds with a level 7 party, for example), or you can explore these in chunks along the main quest, once you´re in Baldur´s Gate you can skip some of the seemingly mandatory content by exploring the Iron Throne building right away (you don´t even have to fight the party at the uppermost level, iirc), etc.
Just about the only general difference between both games is the one branching occurrence in BG2, but otherwise both games maintain similar degree and type of (non)linearity and to me BG1 actually feels overall less linear than BG2.
At any rate, linear main quest doesn´t necessarily mean linear game.

As a sidenote, both games are also kinda similar in that they have, in my opinion, issues with balancing/placing the optional bits - in BG1 it´s pretty much impossible to go through the expansion parts at appropriate time as it either skews balance in the main game or doesn´t make much sense from a story perspective, and in BG2 the sense of urgency goes strongly against completionist-y approach in general (can be quite elegantly "fixed" by raising the sum needed for ship to 60000 or so).

My whole point is that was why I was so impresed with the battles in DA:O, even the filler combats could still be fun and challenging and you could still lose.
But if one finds a lot of these fights repetitive, the fact they´re challenging and time consuming to boot is very likely detrimental to the one´s overall enjoyment. Due to its combat system and encounter/enemy design, in BG2 you can breeze through the filler fast, which means the filler isn´t memorable and it´s easier to remember the game for its mage duels and boss fights, whereas in the case of DA:O, the fact one may spend proportionately quite a lot of time in encounters which one doesn´t find outstanding in any way may be a problem.
Personally I didn´t quite mind the usual suspect, Deep Roads, because I liked the atmosphere there and I´ve found the latter half well put together, but Carta hideout or the cultist temple really got on my nerves in this regard more than anything in BG2, at least if I exclude Throne of Bhaal.
 
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... Personally I didn´t quite mind the usual suspect, Deep Roads, because I liked the atmosphere there and I´ve found the latter half well put together, but Carta hideout or the cultist temple really got on my nerves in this regard more than anything in BG2.

I agree. The Deep Roads probably should have a lot of combat because you are deep in enemy territory - more precisely, where they live. The length of the Deep Roads made it feel pretty immersive in terms of going on a "dangerous adventure" into forgotten realms overrun by darkspawn that once belonged to the Dwarfs. In this way, the "filler combat" makes sense from a world-building/atmospheric standpoint, so I didn't find it to truly be filler combat at all. The Carta's on the other hand...I started to get a bit bored of the combat halfway through that level. Luckily I enjoyed the combat system enough to not feel too annoyed by any portion of the game that was similar.
 
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And this is different from BG1 how?
The game´s main quest is linear in that there are certain mandatory plot points (chapter transitions) which you need to go through in a given order, but you´re given quite a leeway in what to do in-between or how to reach these points.
There´s a big amount of maps you can explore before even touching the main quest (and end up going against the Nashkel kobolds with a level 7 party, for example), or you can explore these in chunks along the main quest, once you´re in Baldur´s Gate you can skip some of the seemingly mandatory content by exploring the Iron Throne building right away (you don´t even have to fight the party at the uppermost level, iirc), etc.

Well there are really two types of "open" gameplay that you see in RPGs. One is an open world wih an ability to explore where you want, but with certain quests that you are meant to do in a certain order. This type of world does not usually require level scaling. Every area has a clear level range at which your supposed to go there and you go out of order at your own risk (and reward). This is what BG1 was like, and I usually prefer games like this.

The other type of "open" world is what you see extensively in KoTOR and DA:O, but which also featured somewhat in BG2. This is where the story elements don't necesarily have an order in which your supposed to play them in, for example in DA:O you you spend a good half or more of the game putting your treaties together, but you can do this in whatever order you want. These games require level scaling because your MUCH more powerful at the end of them at the beginning but you still have to go through all the different parts. BG2 did not have as much of this, but there was one major area of the game that featured large numbers of quests that did not have any particular order you were supposed to do them in. This requires level scaling, and thus BG2 had level scaling.

So maybe linear isn't the right word, but the point isn't to argue which game is more or less linear but to explain why some need level scaling and some do not.

As for challenge and filler battles, I prefer mine to be more challenging, although it does depend somewhat on how much I enjoy the battle system. I liked the DA battle system, which helped a lot. I actually didn't always find BG style combats fun though, I remember the tougher filler battles in Icewind Dale could actually be a pain. So maybe it was a good thing that the BG filler battles were easy, fast and pointless.
 
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Alrik, the steam version of Kotor costs only 8,99€

Thanks - but why doesn't Activision do to budget releases by licensing the game out to labels like Green Pepper ??? If they'd do so, they'd have no additional costs … Because Green Pepper does the packaging and everything themselves …
 
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