Mass Effect is Not Dead

BoboTheMighty said:

I'm afraid, despite your vast and deep knowledge of the industry, you keep missing the point.
"Decent" profit often isn't enough. This depends on the publisher ( Ubisoft despite it's annual generic whatever, often works on great smaller titles like Child of Light), but on larger, more expensive projects, they go with less risk/high profit. And EA openly talking about SP oriented games becoming more "obsolete" ( which Mass Effect is), they need a better return for it.

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Andromeda is probably not what they were going for, you know

Mass Effect has the potential to make a lot more money than that - and they know it.

Apparently, you don't.

That depends on the type of game and what content they're planning to add to it. For some it takes much more than a "skeleton crew". And Bioware already stated it is "10 year long journey" and that is more story driven ( than similar games like Destiny), which requires a lot more work than adding skins, simple game mechanics, balancing, etc.

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Who said anything about a skeleton crew? I said live teams a much smaller than development teams, in almost all cases.

Are you disputing that or not?

Are you aware of how many developers and how much money was poured into Star Wars the Old Republic? The most expensive MMO in the world, at the time - by the way. Are you aware that Bioware didn't stop making games after that?

We're, what, 7 years after launch now and we've had:

Mass Effect 3
Dragon Age Inquisition
Mass Effect Andromeda

As well as two cancelled games actively in development POST launch of SWtOR.

Can you see how your point is a little weak when contrasted with that information?

You see, while people on "minor" positions tend to move around a lot, highly experienced leads ( typically) do not. And I'm sure you're aware that finding people in those positions is actually pretty difficult ( mostly thanks to high rate burnout). Not to mention that Bioware has lost considerable number of people in those positions in recent years.

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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that these challenges won't be overcome if they see money in doing so?

And last time, EA handed IP to unproven studio, "coincidentally" Mass Effect Andromeda happened. They even had to pull one of leads from Edmonton to save the project…despite this, it killed the studio, put franchise on ice, and damaged Bioware's reputation.
It's unlikely EA would do the same again. And the ones who have experience on IP, are working on Anthem, with Casey Hudson spearheading the project. Again, their own words: 10 year project.

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I agree, it's unlikely they'll mess up the next game on the same level

Read above. Also recently, Ammy Hennig who worked on cancelled EA Star Wars game, left the company. She also talked about problems with SP centered AAA games and how publishers are shifting away from them.

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Who said anything about Mass Effect being exclusively SP?

That said, they've been talking about going away from these games for something like a decade by now. Still hasn't happened.

Flawed analogy. TES is one of the most popular and profitable franchises in gaming. It wouldn't be the same franchise with MP. Bethesda can release it a month after ESO expansion without even the slightest worry.
Andromeda is nowhere near ( commercially) successful; and bad reception always hits next game in the series ( see Watch Dogs I/II). Even Dragon Age II received a good amount of post launch content. Andromeda: zero.

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I didn't say it was an analogy - I said it reminded me of the same thing. The same ignorant kind of statement as you're making.

I'm not sure why you're talking about Andromeda here. Your own point was about Anthem - not Andromeda.

How much profit is more relevant. If you can earn 1.50 for every $ you spend, or 5, or 10…
Also huge amount of revenue for EA comes from microtransactions, and MP oriented ( which Mass Effect is not) games are much easier to monetize on that front.
Former EA employee: "EA doesn't care what you want, they care what you will pay for".

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Again, Mass Effect has included MP in the past - and it could easily do so again.

If you think games with a built-in audience are unattractive in this way, I can only repeat myself about your insights

You might want to inform them then to start working on C&C, Dead Space and dozens of other IPs that were ( comercially) successful, even without breaking sales records.
Sorry, but that is plain false: There are far too many cases of publishers setting unrealistic sale expectations, game earning decent amount of profit, and it still being put on ice afterwards.

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Dead Space was never anything like Mass Effect in terms of popularity - and C&C has failed way too many times by now.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see them come back - even so.

Congratz for mastering the obvious.

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You mean, the obviousness of your false information? Ok, cool.

Yes, I was talking about total numbers that includes outside contractors, but "GAAS" games require a lot more than a few dozen people working post launch. Bioware's own words indicate they're in for a long haul and entirely focused on it.

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That's great, but you forgot to mention any of that when you doubled the number of active developers - and now you're talking about "a few dozen people" which I suppose must relate to something I've said?

Would you mind telling us more about your personal experience on working in industry? Projects you worked on, publishers,…or even worked with game legends like Mikami, Spector, Miyamoto, ol' Gabe and others? Perhaps even taught them a few tricks, eh?
You must have many wonderful stories to tell.

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Oh, you mean like I must have endured World War 2 to know anything about it, right?

Hey, man, if you think you understand game development - that's cool

All I'm saying is that it sure doesn't sound like it, to me. Your arguments are weak and you're providing false information, pretending it's no big deal - and then you're saying "obvious" about stuff that's incredibly relevant, but you just happened to not mention.

In any case, the future will tell - won't it.

Let's agree that if the next Mass Effect is not announced or confirmed to be in development within, say, 5 years - I will publically state on this very forum that I was wrong.

Deal?

Darth Tagnan said:

Let's agree that if the next Mass Effect is not announced or confirmed to be in development within, say, 5 years - I will publically state on this very forum that I was wrong.

Deal?

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Let's agree if EA doesn't shut down Bioware within next 5 years I will publically state I was wrong.

joxer said:

Let's agree if EA doesn't shut down Bioware within next 5 years I will publically state I was wrong.

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They may very well shut Bioware down, but I don't know the rights situation. In that scenario - they could very well get someone else to do it.

Andromeda is probably not what they were going for, you know

Mass Effect has the potential to make a lot more money than that - and they know it.

Apparently, you don't.

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Why exactly they're not working on it, if they could not simply "hire more people"? Bioware Montreal was planned to continue with the franchise.

Who said anything about a skeleton crew? I said live teams a much smaller than development teams, in almost all cases.

Are you disputing that or not?

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I said it depends on the project and what they're planning to do with it. In this case, even if good number stop working on Anthem, it's more likely they will be reassigned on somewhere else in EA on other projects, than put together a new team for Mass Effect.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that these challenges won't be overcome if they see money in doing so?

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Money doesn't solve their problems here, Andromeda had more than enough funding.
If Mass Effect makes a comeback, it would definitely have to be touted as Casey Hudson's and Bioware "A team" project.

I agree, it's unlikely they'll mess up the next game on the same level

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See above.

Who said anything about Mass Effect being exclusively SP?

That said, they've been talking about going away from these games for something like a decade by now. Still hasn't happened.

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Hasn't it? Their own former designers talk about shifting more toward MP for the sake of profitability, including EA's own spokesman.

DAO, ME1, DA 2, ME 2..no multiplayer

then one title after another

ME 3: added MP ( still tolerable), DAI: added multiplayer, MEA: far more "grind oriented"/exploitable Multiplayer), Anthem : centered around multiplayer.

Again, Mass Effect has included MP in the past - and it could easily do so again.

If you think games with a built-in audience are unattractive in this way, I can only repeat myself about your insights

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Including Multiplayer and being designed around one, are two different things.

Like I said, it's easier for EA to design new Multiplayer oriented IP from the get go, than face a backlash from trying to monetize one in one that was Single Player oriented (so far).

Dead Space was never anything like Mass Effect in terms of popularity - and C&C has failed way too many times by now.

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It certainly earned enough money, as you say publishers care about one thing above all else: Profit.

That's great, but you forgot to mention any of that when you doubled the number of active developers - and now you're talking about "a few dozen people" which I suppose must relate to something I've said?

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First I was talking about Division II, which is pretty obvious. And I'm not sure what you're talking about second part…except you're finally realizing your own hyperbole about requiring "much, much less people" in post launch"? Good on you then!

Oh, you mean like I must have endured World War 2 to know anything about it, right?

Hey, man, if you think you understand game development - that's cool

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So that makes us all world war experts? We've all read about it!

No I mean, when you're condescendingly snarling at others about "understanding" game development better than others, you'd better have something to back it up …other than "I've read about it on the Internet".

Your arguments are weak and you're providing false information, pretending it's no big deal - and then you're saying "obvious" about stuff that's incredibly relevant, but you just happened to not mention.

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That's alright. You can freely ignore actual facts on what goes in EA/Bioware, sales, studio developments ( and hirings) and dance around with mental acrobatics.
Sorry, but if you had any "stronger arguments", you'd have easier time convincing others.

Let's agree that if the next Mass Effect is not announced or confirmed to be in development within, say, 5 years - I will publically state on this very forum that I was wrong.

Deal?

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Ok, then deal. Is it a set date? You said, 2-3 years previously…I'm just checking in. ( Probably still coming out sooner than Star Citizen though )

No I mean, when you're condescendingly snarling at others about "understanding" game development better than others, you'd better have something to back it up …other than "I've read about it on the Internet".

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No, I'm stating an opinion based on your arguments - which are weak and uninformed. I won't even get into your way of ignoring your own false information and correcting every omission with it being "obvious".

What am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think you know what you're talking about and instead drive you crazy in your inability to support your position over the next 3 pages? I don't get a kick out of that as I once did

Also, knowing game development and being an artist developing games are two very, very different things. Most artists have a very limited understanding of the over-arching process of developing games. Most businessmen have a very limited understanding of what it means to be an artist.

But the passionate fans who expose themselves to every facet of all these processes - and who've dabbled in most of them in one way or the other might actually understand something about the bigger picture.

In that same way, someone like Roger Ebert is probably a good person to talk to about movies and their history as a whole - where a script writer or an actor might actually not be terribly informed about the total process. I mean, obviously SOME are very informed - but there's no guarentee that they know more than Ebert does.

Not saying that you're not a passionate fan. You're obviously a gamer with experience. But you're also very young and you simply don't have a firm grasp of the nuances or the history of the industry.

I will forego the rest of the dick measuring contest and get straight to something that's a much better way of establishing who's "right" about this:

Ok, then deal. Is it a set date? You said, 2-3 years previously…I'm just checking in. ( Probably still coming out sooner than Star Citizen though )

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Yeah, and you said 7+ years

It's called a compromise - and you don't even have to say you're wrong if you are.

Pretty good deal.

A little part of me dies inside every single time that I see a Bioware/Origin product garner more than one page of comments. It isn't coming back, it will never ever return to that past glory, time to move on!

Given that you are usually wrong that will be a first; not being wrong just admitting that you are wrong. Of course 5 years from now i'm not sure anyone will remember the promise you made but failed to keep.

joxer said:

Let's agree if EA doesn't shut down Bioware within next 5 years I will publically state I was wrong.

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yea but I think we all knew the game was over when they were acquired by EA. To be honest they were headed in that direction before EA acquired them but once acquired they had no choice. The execs are bean counters and their methodology focus (frequently false) on trends that are then uniformly applied whether it makes sense or not and then when things totally fail they have to blame someone else. That's the way a big company works it is always someone else fault.

Carnifex said:

A little part of me dies inside every single time that I see a Bioware/Origin product garner more than one page of comments. It isn't coming back, it will never ever return to that past glory, time to move on!

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That's the way a big company works it is always someone else fault.

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That's the way the majority of the human race works.

Darth Tagnan said:

They may very well shut Bioware down, but I don't know the rights situation. In that scenario - they could very well get someone else to do it.

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They could. Just like they did with Visceral Games studio and Dead Space franchise.

joxer said:

They could. Just like they did with Visceral Games studio and Dead Space franchise.

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IIRC, Visceral Studios did all three Dead Space games, they just weren't allowed to do what they wanted to for the last one. Probably not for any of the DS games, but certainly not for the third one.

The first DS was originally meant to be a game closer in line with System Shock - or so I seem to have read somewhere. I can't remember the details - but EA played a pretty big part from the beginning.

AFAIK, there's been no announcement of a DS4 yet.

But even with its modest success, it's got a built-in audience - and EA will get around to it eventually, I have little doubt of that.

Are you sure ?

Darth Tagnan said:

That's the way the majority of the human race works.

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you said:

Are you sure ?

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Certainty is a tricky concept. I'm not sure I'm alive - and I'm not sure I exist.

But let's just say I'm very confident in my perception of human nature - and I'd say it's more common to (at least partially) blame others for things that go wrong - regardless of how and why - than the reverse, sadly.

One way I can demonstrate this concept:

Take a look at what happens when a child stumbles and falls over, say, a rock. Apart from crying - one of the most common reactions involve getting angry at the rock. They don't get angry at themselves, they get angry at the rock.

In that same way, if you look at the average human being making a similarly trivial mistake "in public" - you will see a response not entirely unlike the child's.

Their immediate and instinctual reaction is one of ANYTHING except simply acknowledging that they were clumsy or did something that's completely natural for people to do. As in, mess up or not look where you're going.

Now, most adults are raised - or conditioned - to eventually just concede "oops, that was stupid" - but it's not their instinctual reaction, which is one of anger and shame.

So, when we're dealing with public perception - most people will instinctually react to their own mistakes with a defensive response and, very typically, that will include blaming someone or something other than themselves.

The irony is that once they've instinctually blamed another person (which they might not have done if they held their tongue a little), they THEN have to defend that position - because otherwise that would be ANOTHER mistake, compounding the negative instinctual reaction they're going to feel.

It's much the same thing when you witness people arguing on a public forum, such as this one. We're all guilty of such things to some degree.

Darth Tagnan said:

IIRC, Visceral Studios did all three Dead Space games, they just weren't allowed to do what they wanted to for the last one. Probably not for any of the DS games, but certainly not for the third one.

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You're remembering it right.
Visceral is however no more for ages now, EA killed it. After they did it... DS4 is outsourced to whom?

joxer said:

You're remembering it right.
Visceral is however no more.

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Yeah, they joined the ranks of Origin, Westwood and Bullfrog - and more.

Some of my favorite developers there.

They'll find someone to do DS4 when they're in the mood for pocket change. Of course, they'll try to market it as the second coming.

That's how you generate a profit when you don't have enough talent and passion working for you

For all I know DS4 is already in development. As a phonegame.

There was not enough time to announce it because of the new command and conquer.

joxer said:

For all I know DS4 is already in development. As a phonegame.

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You never convert the primary franchise in that way. You create a "companion" game to maximise profit.

Like that Elder Scrolls thing that's coming soon.

LOL
What are EA's primary franchises? Sims maybe?
I assure you Sims Freeplay and Sims Mobile are not "companion" games.

Darth Tagnan said:

You never convert the primary franchise in that way. You create a "companion" game to maximise profit.

Like that Elder Scrolls thing that's coming soon.

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You mean Elder Scrolls Blade? Yep Joxer will hate that game.