Skyrim - Why It Should Be Your GotY

DoctorNarrative said:

Failure has connotations beyond "I didn't like it." Oblivion was not, in any way, a failure. I don't have a problem with saying it was a crappy game, I have a problem with saying it was a failure.

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Let some time pass, and the men and studio involved release much better games, and you'll see some recognizing the design failure it is despite numerous good points.

Dungeon Siege have been a strong sell success but with time its design failures has became universally identified (it's a game I like but for sure I wouldn't make it as my top). And it's known it's a failure or at least a mid failure, design failure.

The problem with Oblivion is to have been one of the first console WRPG that initiate to that type of RPG many young console players. That sort of base plus a mass effect could forever glue Oblivion to the legend RPG, and time make it grow as such.

Madona is a good example of that, a young mass base, with time, make her identified as a great artist. When the fact is it's just kind pop music and good popularity management, not really interesting music, and few more interesting songs there and there.

crpgnut said:

I can't imagine Skyrim scoring higher than TW2 here, because of the some anti-Bethesda bias. Even if it was the best game ever, in all aspects, some folks here will hate it because it was developed by Bethesda Softworks. It also is almost guaranteed to be weaker in storyline than TW2 because that's not its focus. There are a lot of story-lovers on this site and they'll rightly prefer TW2 to Skyrim, which is cool. I've never understood the love for the Gothics, Risen, Arcania, etc., but then again I'm not a story guy.

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I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. You see it that way because, in your own words, you're a Bethesda fanboy. Every developer is criticized around here, not just Bethesda. You're probably more sensitive to that criticism because of how much you like Bethesda, I can understand that.

Understand that Bethesda games are naturally going to be criticized more than a lot of other crpgs simply because more people have played them. There is no "anti-Bethesda" crusade here.

I disagree, to be honest. I'm not suggesting anyone in particular is on a crusade but the hardcore CRPGs sites are far too critical on Oblivion. I don't find it a great game by any means but it's not the end of civilisation as some make it out to be.

To give an example, The Witcher is universally lauded (for good reason) for it's strengths with high-level choice and consequence but Oblivion is much stronger on low-level options (character diversity, equipment, geographical freedom). I know someone is going to come along and say "equipment doesn't define an RPG" but I can mount a pretty fair argument TW isn't an RPG at all.

Due to low price on GOG, I have started to play The Witcher. As I expected, I have in deep troubles to play the game. Way too difficult for my skills and knowledge.
Wont go as far as telling that The Witcher is not a RPG but it is clearly a niche RPG that requires a lot of investment to draw anything substantial from the game as a RPG.

And it is probably plays best when not played as a RPG. Leaning strongly toward action adventure game as it is probably the way most players play it but can meet the target for a small audience as a RPG.

Motoki said:

Except that in Bethesda games there is really no significant consequence for your behaviors.

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Right but I think they are trying. The advances on Radiant AI (if there is any) will tell the direction Bethesda is progressing.

Are they moving towards more reciprocation from the gameworld, will behaviours bear (more) consequences? If not, well, as so many other developpers, Bethesda would have dropped the RPG's ball.

Dhruin said:

I disagree, to be honest. I'm not suggesting anyone in particular is on a crusade but the hardcore CRPGs sites are far too critical on Oblivion. I don't find it a great game by any means but it's not the end of civilisation as some make it out to be.

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I was talking about Bethesda in general, not Oblivion. While Oblivion does catch some flack around here, Bethesda's games seem to be well liked overall.

If you ask me, I think Fallout 3 was victimized just as badly when it came to unfair criticism from the harcore crowd, maybe even more so.

ChienAboyeur said:

Due to low price on GOG, I have started to play The Witcher. As I expected, I have in deep troubles to play the game. Way too difficult for my skills and knowledge.
Wont go as far as telling that The Witcher is not a RPG but it is clearly a niche RPG that requires a lot of investment to draw anything substantial from the game as a RPG.

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Interesting.. One of my few complaints about The Witcher is a perceived lack of difficulty.

Well there is that frustrating difficulty spike at the end of the 1st chapter, but otherwise, not very hard.

JDR13 said:

Interesting.. One of my few complaints about The Witcher is a perceived lack of difficulty.

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At highest difficulty level? I believed you played it at Normal.

Dasale said:

At highest difficulty level? I believed you played it at Normal.

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Actually, I played it on Hard.

JDR13 said:

Actually, I played it on Hard.

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That requires to be mentioned when someone complain about a too low difficulty.

Thank you, Dasale, for enlightening me on the requirements of this forum.

JDR13 said:

Thank you, Dasale, for enlightening me on the requirements of this forum.

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You are welcome I'm always happy to help the young.

JDR13 said:

Interesting.. One of my few complaints about The Witcher is a perceived lack of difficulty.

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Waooo, stay with us, simple mortals. The RP exercize demanded by The Witcher is the most difficult. That is RP tournament settings when you are given a character sheet cast by the judges (who had time to reach a consensual vision on how the character should be RPed, even though re-interpretation might be welcome) and you have to stay on character and stick the closest possible to what the sheet exhibits.

Very difficult by all means. For example, it is not that hard to RP a character lacking persuasion skills, harder to play a character with very high persuasion but much harder to RP a character with average skills who must be midly convincing. Usually when the GM asks a roll to check against the persuasion skills, that is because the player was not on his character, so RP failed.

As someone who did not know The Witcher's universe, therefore lacking any reference points to set an environment for The Witcher role, and who did not know the personality as the hero is a predefined character with an already determined personality, I am finding the RP extremelly demanding in The Witcher.

Please consider that
1- all people did not read The Witcher series,
2- not everyone can RP a predefined character, stays on it as it suits and that not everybody has your talent.

before declaring that The Witcher lacks perceived difficulty.

How do you RP when the game just offer you a limited number of options in dialogs and story choices? If you succeed find RP in that choices it's quite limited RP.

ChienAboyeur said:

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Difficulty in a computer game is set by the game itself not by the little dm inside my head nor by the books, or anything other, that served as inspiration.

Besides if a game where it is only possible to rp one single predefined individual allows you to go off-character as easily as you suggest then it's not a matter of difficulty but simply a matter of the game failing to accurately portray that person.

The Witcher was easy.

holeraw said:

...
The Witcher was easy.

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Well ok but then DKS was also easy apart when you tried do some fights few levels too soon. But same fights was too easy when you came back 2/3 levels after.

Apart beginning of G2+NOTR I don't see similar action RPG that are difficult. Perhaps G3 I didn't played fully.

Difficulty in a computer game is set by the game itself not by the little dm inside my head nor by the books, or anything other, that served as inspiration.

Besides if a game where it is only possible to rp one single predefined individual allows you to go off-character as easily as you suggest then it's not a matter of difficulty but simply a matter of the game failing to accurately portray that person.

The Witcher was easy.

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If you say so…
The answer leans toward framed RP, that is behaving like The Witcher is a given due to the game providing the right settings for that. If so, the RP side is reduced to nill as everything done by the player is The Witcher like. The player's involvement is reduced to nothing as any delivered output does.

As to having a little DM in the head or not, cRPGs havent not moved towards a gameworld that would reciprocate to the player's behaviour. That is the current state of affairs. While the game does not provide the necessary feed back to assess the quality of RP, very few other solutions that getting a little DM in the head.

ChienAboyeur said:

If you say so…
The answer leans toward framed RP, that is behaving like The Witcher is a given due to the game providing the right settings for that. If so, the RP side is reduced to nill as everything done by the player is The Witcher like. The player's involvement is reduced to nothing as any delivered output does.

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I understand the idea is that every decision you make is a decision that Geralt would make - because that's what the game allows you to do - so you don't have to worry about whether you are properly behaving like Geralt or not. However if Geralt is not a completely one-dimensional character existing within a completely black and white world then the answer to his dilemmas might be a lot less simple and obvious than what you suggest, and therefore the player's involvement remains crucial.

ChienAboyeur said:

As to having a little DM in the head or not, cRPGs havent not moved towards a gameworld that would reciprocate to the player's behaviour. That is the current state of affairs. While the game does not provide the necessary feed back to assess the quality of RP, very few other solutions that getting a little DM in the head.

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Ok, but in that case it's not the game that's hard it's the dm that's very strict.


……

Dasale said:

Well ok but then DKS was also easy apart when you tried do some fights few levels too soon. But same fights was too easy when you came back 2/3 levels after.

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The first time I played the only time I wished I could leave and return later was when fighting the Beast, but even that was because I wasn't being smart enough… once I realized that the aard works on it, it died with a single hit. After that I had no trouble. (there was the Kikimore Queen too but that was a different deal)
I can't think of any RPG right now that gave me overall less trouble on 'normal' than the Witcher did on 'hard'.

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Also, I like how a thread about Skyrim being GotY ended up being about the Witcher so easily… in your face Bethesda

ChienAboyeur said:

As someone who did not know The Witcher's universe, therefore lacking any reference points to set an environment for The Witcher role, and who did not know the personality as the hero is a predefined character with an already determined personality, I am finding the RP extremelly demanding in The Witcher.

Please consider that
1- all people did not read The Witcher series,
2- not everyone can RP a predefined character, stays on it as it suits and that not everybody has your talent.

before declaring that The Witcher lacks perceived difficulty.

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I thought that was sort of the point of the amnesia plot device to address this. He was somewhat of a blank slate to begin with and the character knew no more about his past than you did as the player, but you both discovered it together.

In fact, I avoided making a major decision and taking a side in the second chapter and the game (well Triss) basically slapped me in the face and said 'look, you need to take a stand and decide who you want to be and who you are'. She was talking to Geralt of course but in some sense I also felt she was talking to me as a player.

The game also seemed to be making the point that the past doesn't so much matter as much as who you chose to be in the present does so I didn't feel at all weighed down by any backstory baggage.

Of course this was my personal experience and YMMV.

holeraw said:

I understand the idea is that every decision you make is a decision that Geralt would make - because that's what the game allows you to do - so you don't have to worry about whether you are properly behaving like Geralt or not. However if Geralt is not a completely one-dimensional character existing within a completely black and white world then the answer to his dilemmas might be a lot less simple and obvious than what you suggest, and therefore the player's involvement remains crucial.

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It changes nothing. The quote expresses the absence of RP possibilities as every behaviour is The Witcher's. Not matter the course of behaviour decided, the man is a Witcher (role) and true to his personality (character), voiding all reasons to speak about RP.

Mere re-interpretation of a role and within this role, a character. Same opera song, different interpretations.

Ok, but in that case it's not the game that's hard it's the dm that's very strict.

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I am replaying The Hitman series as I wait for number 5. I noticed, that funnily enough, the game engines include small procedures to assess the RP quality of the characters the hitman can be brought to impersonate. it is more about not breaking role and not act suspiciously but it is there. If the hitman breaks role, he is discovered.

Funnily enough because a game that is not a RPG but allows very shallow RPG sessions by intermediation (the Hitman is the RP player) includes a system to assess whether or not The Hitman does not drift too much off his role. Behaviour and consequences.

Now today RPGs are still lacking procedures to assess the RP quality. It makes most of RPGs easy to play as they send no feed back on the quality of RP. In this regard, there can not be hard RPGs, only tedious RPGs that shift difficulty elsewhere. Hard combat does not mean RP is hard.

So if it is only about exploiting an obvious lack in RPGs and a none progress sector in the genre( still no assessment of the behaviour), why not underline that every RPGs are easy in terms of RP?

……

The first time I played the only time I wished I could leave and return later was when fighting the Beast, but even that was because I wasn't being smart enough… once I realized that the aard works on it, it died with a single hit. After that I had no trouble. (there was the Kikimore Queen too but that was a different deal)
I can't think of any RPG right now that gave me overall less trouble on 'normal' than the Witcher did on 'hard'.

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Combat is only RP when it allows the character to characterize itself within its role and personality. A vicious witcher fights first like a witcher and second viciously.

Hard combat tells nothing about how RP is hard or not. If a combat can be easily won by breaking character, by exploiting holes, it underlines that staying on character is hard and then RP is hard.