Kosovo

VPeric

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Any opinions about it?

(I had a decently witty one-liner for this, but I've, sadly, managed to forget it)

I'd rather wait before giving my opinion, too, because I'm (probably quite a bit) biased. ;)
 
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No, I think it's James Taylor: "Oh, Kosovo...It sounds so simple I just got to go..."
 
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A friend of mine was a member of the group in charge of EU's Balkan policy. He was pretty discouraged by what he saw in Kosovo. His impression was that they're all stone killers more interested in offing each other than actually making something out of that patch of land. Big surprise there, they've been at it for 2000 years or more (depends on where you start counting; the Thracians and the Illyrians weren't exactly the most neighborly of folk waay back when). Even the Ottomans couldn't pacify the place, and they tried every trick in the book; playing it soft, bribery, manipulation, co-optation, invasion, occupation, and eventually just stacking skulls in really big piles. Nothing worked, any better than Tito's success at keeping a lid on it for a few decades. The word "Balkanization" wasn't invented by accident.
 
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Yeah, well, it obviously hasn't been perfect (though I DO believe Tito had a chance to "fix" it - instead, he just poured donations in and left the problem for the future generations), but the real question is: What is going to happen now?

The Albanians will stop at nothing short of full independance (probably choosing to merge with Albania in the not-too-distant future), but the Serbs will not relent easily. Of course, the hands of Serbia are tied, because we can't send it forces, or really, apply any sort of pressure on them, and they know it, and so continue to terrorize (in various ways) the remaining Serbian population.

The international community doesn't particulary care, either - they are all thinking of their own interests when deciding about Kosovo (even, and especially Russia, the "great friend of Serbs" and such - they and China are only supporting us because the other way would be a major precedent, unfavorable for them). On the other side of the pond, the US doesn't have such problems (not to mention all the conspiracy theories along the lines of "They bombed it so they could access the (rich) mineral deposits there!"). And finally, the EU is doing their best to stabilize the situation, with the "It'll all be EU soon enough, anyway" position - while probably true, it is far less favorable for the Serbs (at least in the short-term) than the Albanians, which is why it isn't expected.

In the end, I expect that the EU will prevail, by giving Kosovo a (very) loose kind of autonomy, and "bribing" Serbia by helping them on their way to EU membership. Still, there are perils, because Serbia accepting such a deal right away might be exactly the sort of push needed to install the nationalist radical party into power - a bad outcome by everyone's standard.
 
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I have never really understood this conflict between Serbs and Croats and why it has lasted so long. Could you please give us a brief history lesson!!
 
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I have never really understood this conflict between Serbs and Croats and why it has lasted so long. Could you please give us a brief history lesson!!

How brief?

The very brief version is that Serbs believe that Croats aren't Christians and should be killed, that Croats believe that Serbs aren't Christians and should be killed, both believe that because Bosnians and Albanians are Muslims they should be killed, Bosnians (being Muslims) believe Serbs and Croats should accept their status as dhimmis (or be killed, their choice), and Albanians believe that because they're descended from the Thracians their purpose in life is to kill everybody else, preferably with a really big sword. Oh, and Montenegrans will kill anyone who sets foot on their mountain because they're probably out to steal their sheep.

A slightly less provocative way of putting it is that the Balkans are a nasty neighborhood. It's been bang in the middle of the crossroads of Eastern and Western Christianity and Islam. They've been invaded, pillaged, occupied, forcibly converted, and put to the sword pretty much continuously, either by each other or by external powers (the Romans, the Huns, the Byzantines, the Turks, the Bulgars, etc. etc.). That sort of thing will mess with your head, as well as shift borders and peoples pretty much continuously, which leaves a lot of people with grudges.

Take Kosovo, for example. Nowadays it's mostly ethnic Albanian. However, it used to be a part of the Serbian kingdom, and a battle fought there (which the Serbs lost) plays a critical part in the Serbian national mythos -- they pretty much consider it the place where Serbia originated. But they can't stand the Albanians, and the Albanians aren't inclined to leave. So there you have it.

Oh, and they can't agree who originally came up with Uzka Dara. All of 'em claim it as their song. Including the Bulgarians and the Turks.
 
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OK, I'm pretty sure that's not the place James Taylor was singing about (or The Beach Boys). ;)
 
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I had to find a world map to locate Kosovo--from what I could tell, it is a Serbian province. Prime Junta's and your descriptions, VPeric, portray a situation that sounds ugly, but I'm unsure what your question is. Is there an intensifying conflict going on that could draw U.N. participation or lead to a full-fledged war between the factions and ethnic groups? Is Kosovo's affiliation to Serbia in question? Just curious also what you think should be going on and what needs to happen next.
 
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I had to find a world map to locate Kosovo--from what I could tell, it is a Serbian province. Prime Junta's and your descriptions, VPeric, portray a situation that sounds ugly, but I'm unsure what your question is. Is there an intensifying conflict going on that could draw U.N. participation or lead to a full-fledged war between the factions and ethnic groups? Is Kosovo's affiliation to Serbia in question? Just curious also what you think should be going on and what needs to happen next.

I think that area is *always* in conflict ... WWI anyone?
 
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What has bothered me in the past, is that we have a large number of both Serbian and Croatian refugees come to live here, and they try to continue their conflict HERE!! I have no problem with taking in and helping refugees, but I do when they bring their 'attitude' with them!!
 
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Is there an intensifying conflict going on that could draw U.N. participation or lead to a full-fledged war between the factions and ethnic groups? Is Kosovo's affiliation to Serbia in question? Just curious also what you think should be going on and what needs to happen next.

Yes, there is in fact an intensifying conflict, though the UN is already involved - Kosovo has been under "UN administration" since 1999. Anyway, the conflict coming up is over the status of Kosovo: the Albanians want independancy, while we (obviously) don't. You can get a general overview of the situation on Wikipedia, and it's probably better written than any explanation I'd come up with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

I think that area is *always* in conflict ... WWI anyone?

Actually, WWI was fairly tame considering the later conflicts: During the first part of the war, when we got flanked by the Bulgarians, the Serbian army was mostly just retreating over Kosovo, so there wasn't too much fighting going on. During the second part of the war, the Macedonian front was broken, obviously, in Macedonia and by Kosovo the Serbian army was just sweeping the Austrians away.

If you are referring to the Balkan wars, maybe, they were over Macedonia, and not Kosovo.

What has bothered me in the past, is that we have a large number of both Serbian and Croatian refugees come to live here, and they try to continue their conflict HERE!! I have no problem with taking in and helping refugees, but I do when they bring their 'attitude' with them!!

Yes, well, what can change the nature of man? (wow, I'm using stuff from a game in a real world discussion! :p)
 
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I had to find a world map to locate Kosovo--from what I could tell, it is a Serbian province. Prime Junta's and your descriptions, VPeric, portray a situation that sounds ugly, but I'm unsure what your question is. Is there an intensifying conflict going on that could draw U.N. participation or lead to a full-fledged war between the factions and ethnic groups? Is Kosovo's affiliation to Serbia in question? Just curious also what you think should be going on and what needs to happen next.

The Balkans are fascinating for any war nerd, and it's something I've been meaning to read up more on for a while now, but I always seem to get distracted by the Middle East. More brutality than you can shake a stick at over the last century alone, with everybody taking their turn at being the bad guys. For example, the Croats sided with the Nazis in WW2; their Ustasha out-SS'ed the SS, but then the Serbs under Milošević reintroduced ethnic cleansing into Europe.

As previously stated, currently Kosovo is a part of Serbia, but it's under UN administration. It's ethnically mostly Albanian, with a few Serb enclaves especially towards the north of the province and around the capital, Priština. What's going to happen? What should happen? Tough questions.

My personal view is that the rights of the people who live there are more important than abstract national rights to the terrain. That is, the people of Kosovo should decide. Unfortunately that's not a perfect solution either, since if it was up to the Albanians, I'm pretty sure they could muster up a majority to expel (=ethnically cleanse) the Serb minority from there. So whatever happens, I'm pretty sure the region will stay interesting for a quite a while into the future.
 
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From Yahoo News: Serbia and Kosovo start direct talks

Major powers have set a December 10 deadline for an agreement on the final status of Kosovo, which has been in legal limbo under U.N. administration since 1999, when NATO waged an air war to drive out Serbian forces and halt ethnic cleansing.

Serbia, backed by Russia with its U.N. veto power, rejects independence for Kosovo. But the territory's 2 million ethnic Albanians -- 90 percent of the population -- will settle for nothing less and have warned of violence if they are thwarted.

A joint New York Declaration issued after the meeting said: "The parties reiterated their commitment to engage seriously in these talks. The troika (of mediators) reminded the parties of the (U.N.) Secretary-General's statement of August 1 that the status quo is not sustainable."
 
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Thanks for filling me in a bit more on things, all.

"...the status quo is not sustainable." doesn't sound like a very hopeful development.
 
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It might seem strange my opinion in this matter because it goes directly against the way of what the 'western' countries want. I think that Kosovo is nothing but an a province of Serbia where in the past a lot of Albanians came to live. It would be the same like all the Dutch people would move to Antwerp (province of Belgium) and the declare independincy for it. Not exactly sth that feels right for me, so for me a truely independent Kosovo is out of the question. I think that the status quo of what it is now, might be the best.
 
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@Bartacus, that's because the European mentality has shifted a quite a lot towards the "post-nationalist." Many people in Europe don't consider a national state such a big deal anymore -- many European states are multinational to start with, some of them work quite well as such, and the European Union has further weakened the concept.

But, unfortunately, the concept of the nation-state is still alive, well, and very venomous in much of the world. Those kinds of conflicts feed themselves; they don't burn out, they smolder on for hundreds or even thousands of years, or until one of the parties is exterminated or expelled. Ethnic cleansing is the only solution known to work for this type of conflict. A bit like a bullet in the back of the head is the only known cure for pancreatic cancer.
 
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Apparently things are heating up a bit on this issue for Kosovo and Serbia..looks like a diplomatic nightmare.

From yahoo news:

Kosovo gears up for independence move

By Matt Robinson Mon Dec 10, 4:57 PM ET

PRISTINA (Reuters) - Kosovo Albanians said on Monday they would start immediate talks with Western backers about an independence declaration, but Russia said unilateral recognition could trigger a "chain reaction" of problems around the world.

With a U.N. deadline for agreement on the fate of Serbia's breakaway province expiring on Monday, Serbia said it would try to seek an International Court of Justice opinion on the legitimacy of a declaration of independence.

In Brussels, EU ministers said they had come closer to agreeing a common position on independence for Kosovo.

"From today, Kosovo begins consultations with key international partners to coordinate the next steps to a declaration of independence," Skender Hyseni, spokesman of Kosovo's negotiating team with Serbia, said in Pristina.

"Kosovo and the people of Kosovo urgently need clarity on their future ... The institutions of Kosovo will deliver that clarity very soon."

He said a declaration would come "much earlier than May," referring to one rumored timeframe.

In Washington, the State Department echoed the urgency and reaffirmed it backed moves to help Kosovo towards supervised independence with provisions to protect its Serb minority.

"U.N. MUST DECIDE"

Serbia, firmly against independence, insisted that only the United Nations had the authority to determine Kosovo's future.

"That process belongs to the U.N. Security Council and to all countries that are members of the U.N., not to the EU," Deputy Prime Minister Bozidar Djelic said on the sidelines of a conference in Belgrade about EU accession.

President Boris Tadic told state television that Serbia would urgently ask the Security Council to request an opinion from the International Court of Justice, "asking whether the independence of Kosovo would be legal."

Even if the divided Council agreed to send such a request, the Court could take years to issue an opinion, which would in any case be advisory and non-binding.

Kosovo, which has a 90-percent Albanian majority, has been in legal limbo under U.N. administration since NATO bombing in 1999 pushed out Serbian forces to end ethnic cleansing.

Serbia's main ally on the issue is Russia, able to veto any recognition of Kosovo by the U.N. Security Council.

Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said in Nicosia that a unilateral declaration would "create a chain reaction throughout the Balkans and other areas of the world."

Later, after meeting EU officials in Brussels, he said Russia would pre-empt any moves by Western powers to win U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's backing for the view that U.N. Resolution 1244 could remain valid even after independence.

The resolution is the basis for international supervision of Kosovo's protectorate status, and could help the EU in its aim of taking over police and justice tasks in Kosovo from the United Nations, while NATO troops remain in place.

"The institution of the secretary-general ... should not in anyway be compromised, and we will do what we can to ensure that is the case," Lavrov said.

EU STILL DIVIDED

The European Union's internal divisions paralyzed its attempts to halt the Balkan wars of the 1990s. This time it is seeking a unified position to try to encourage Serbia and Russia to accept independence for Kosovo, and to enable the EU to take responsibility for helping to maintain order there.

But at least three nations -- Spain, Cyprus and Slovakia -- blocked agreement at talks in Brussels on Monday.

"We are in support of a negotiated settlement ... and would not like to see anything undermining the international legal basis," Cypriot Foreign Minister Erato Kozakou Markoullis said.

Spain's Miguel Angel Moratinos said: "Never in history has a unilateral declaration of independence been positive."

Slovakia also said it would find it hard to recognize an independent Kosovo, though Foreign Minister Jan Kubis said the EU could still deploy a 1,600-strong police mission there.

The EU executive would also like to appoint a civilian representative in a supervisory role in Kosovo.

French Secretary of State for Europe Jean-Pierre Jouyet said he expected some EU capitals to take time to recognize Kosovo's sovereignty but insisted all would back the mission, adding: "That will be the yardstick on which unity will be measured."

Russian President Vladimir Putin discussed the situation by telephone with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday, Russian news agencies reported.

Four months of internationally-mediated talks on Kosovo, which ended last week, produced no compromise between Serbia and Kosovo's Albanians on Kosovo's future status.
 
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Both sides are acting like Barbarians, imho, and I have quite some suspicions against the Serbians, because of how they behaved in their last wars.

They will NEVER give up the Kosovo, and will claim this for their "national teritory" in even 10.000 years. This is - as far as I know - partly diue to the immense importance of the Battle of the Amselfeld http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo to the Serbians.

They take this as their "national trasure", this field.
So they'll never give it up, ever.
 
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