Dead State - DoubleBear Review Controversy

Aditya said:

Is it that hard for you to understand that people can voluntarily support the reviewer and are voicing their opinions against the developers themselves? And anyways there is a practical limitation on how far a sole person can reach out and influence random strangers on Internet to participate in his/her "mission" to take on developers. It doesn't work that way. People will participate only when they believe in it..and right now, majority of users blame DB for censorship and public abuse of customers.

Anyways, I am done discussing this. As someone said, let the market decide the fate of DB.

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I'm glad I don't have to deal with those types on a day to day business...we can all say majority without any proof, but most don't because it makes you look silly.

By the way, a few seem under some misconception that the review was taken down. Not the case. The review in fact, has been voted the most helpful review by an overwhelming margin (92%), by thousands of other steam users. So apparently, a hell of a lot of people support and agree with the review, and steam has no issue with the review either. As it should be. Companies know that if they censored a review based on a request by a whining developer who didn't like it, that would be very bad public relations, and very bad for business. Steam isn't stupid.

You can go to the steam page right now and see it standing in all its glory. It is the first review you see. http://store.steampowered.com/app/239840/

A hell of a lot of reddit users who took the next opportunity to sheep-mob a female developer. Actually the unusual number of upvotes in a short time may have been a reason in flagging it in the first place.

I am not sure flagging that review was wrong. A mistake maybe but not wrong. It is largely off topic and from someone with a history of crusading on their own forums. Not really a troll but someone with a serious issue, as his campaigning shows. Annies comments were a mistake, because as a dev she can't speak as we all have.

But the way some people her malign double bear now is beyond proportion to me. I have been on their forums from before their Kickstarter and witnessed enough about their interaction with fans and critics to tell you: these are the good guys. Working very hard under very difficult circumstances to create a cool game and a foothold for themselves as a game developer. Lustening to input. Supporting and patching. What has happened here makes me again doubt what this "gaming community" even here at RPGdot stands for. I feel like I don't want to be part of it anymore.

@GhanBuriGhan

RPGWatch (at least the old veterans) supported Dead State from day 1 and we were the first site that put it on a Steam curation list.
Double Bear made only one minor mistake: They left the Early Access phase unnecessarily too early. 2-3 more month of fine-tuning with the help of the community would have been a good thing.
I'm patient enough to wait a few more patches, before I really start playing this game. And I still think it will finally turn out as a very good game, because the core gameplay elements are interesting and fun.

Thrasher said:

Talk about strawmanning… If you want a discussion, you're going to have start being more reasonable.

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I have given reason why I think it was anti-consumer practice on DB's behalf while you believe otherwise. So there cannot be more discussion on that part. That is why I asked you next separate question, what do you think about the standards when some dev abuses their paying customers in public. So be reasonable and answer that.

rune_74 said:

I'm glad I don't have to deal with those types on a day to day business…we can all say majority without any proof, but most don't because it makes you look silly.

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There is ample proof of what the majority is supporting if you just happen to have a look on the sites I told you. To start with, look at the post by Arkadia7 right below your latest post. But you if you choose to remain in your shell and instead believe what's convenient to your own beliefs, then it would make you look silly.

GhanBuriGhan said:

A hell of a lot of reddit users who took the next opportunity to sheep-mob a female developer.

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I hate it when people bring gender in between and spin and twist things to make it look like gamers vs females. The backlash would have been there even if it was a male developer and this female developer in question isn't some idol on innocence herself. Geez. All their supposed hard work done for their own creative pursuits and to seek money, does not justify their ill treating of customers.

But it's not "their customers" it's one fucking dickweed lookink for self aggrandization. And you sheep follow. Anyway I'm out. Bye Watch, thx for the good days.

Aditya said:

I hate it when people bring gender in between and spin and twist things to make it look like gamers vs females. The backlash would have been there even if it was a male developer and the female developer in question isn't some idol on innocence herself. Geez.

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Yep, this thing right there...
What I find strange about it is that this issue wasn't so overtly addressed in this thread untill now. Before was just "take pitty on the poor dev, she wrote some awful things in her blog and you should feel very bad for not supporting her and confort her with nice words".
This "Gamers Should be Gentlemen" weird new trend is extremely annoying. Who bloody cares if a few male gamers want to be nice to girls so they can feel confortable playing (and maybe then they will be nice to male gamers too)? The majority of male gamers are either obnoxious kids or, as they were since the begining of gaming, geek-cavemen with the social skills of a rock and the grace of a consaguineous redneck? Sincerely, the only way to get women to be respected in the gaming comunity would to change most of the gaming comunity. Not change their souls, mind you, just put other people in their place.

GhanBuriGhan said:

But it's not "their customers" it's one fucking dickweed lookink for self aggrandization.

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With that language at least you prove you are no different from those abusive developers. Well deserving each-other! And it doesn't matter if it's one customer or hundred.

Arkadia7 said:

By the way, a few seem under some misconception that the review was taken down. Not the case. The review in fact, has been voted the most helpful review by an overwhelming margin (92%), by thousands of other steam users. So apparently, a hell of a lot of people support and agree with the review, and steam has no issue with the review either. As it should be. Companies know that if they censored a review based on a request by a whining developer who didn't like it, that would be very bad public relations, and very bad for business. Steam isn't stupid.

You can go to the steam page right now and see it standing in all its glory. It is the first review you see. http://store.steampowered.com/app/239840/

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I am not sure if it was taken down or not, but I can't find the original one in there. The one on top is a repost of the original plus a few other things.

Indifference only works when it works, that is when there is enough people not paying attention.
In this case, as it was for the previous case, indifference could not work: the review took momentum and gained influence. People lining up to tell they wont buy the product.

The luxury of ignoring was gone.

Bubbles said:

Did you guys read her blog post? http://murderblonde.tumblr.com/

If, after you read that, you still think she and her company needs to be destroyed for what happened then there really is no need for further argument. You are just heartless and cruel. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people fall down and need a little help getting up, not a kick in the teeth while they are down.

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Why keep on that line: destroying the company? Who has been talking of destroying the company?

As to the mistake, it is not possible to tell.
Actually, the most offensive bit is not that the player was called names but when the claim that the player sort of threw a tantrum for a product that was not exactly as the player wished it was made.

Somebody promising customers to deliver replicas of Monna Lisa and getting the replicas done by the first person picked on the street could use the same argument: customers throw a tantrum because the replica does not look exactly as they thought it would.

Planning to fix what needs to be fixed as the claim was made is given a different meaning as clearly, there is going to be a huge divergence between what they think need to be fixed (they see the product not exactly as ) when the product is far from being.

Thrasher said:

The posting rules are here.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810

Offensive or inappropriate reviews can be removed based on the discretion of the moderators.

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It could be rephrased without losing any meaning: Texts can be removed based on the discretion of the moderators.
Arguing over what offensive, inappropriate, review means is pointless. The key word is discretion, which signals arbitrariness.

Fluent said:

Even bugs are subjective. Some claim that Skyrim is the buggiest game ever. I had barely any bugs when I played it for 300+ hours.

Had I listened to the trolls who said, "Don't buy!!!", I would have never had that experience (and it was one of the best experiences ever for me).

So, I would never want to tell someone to not purchase a game. I say - purchase it, find out for yourself if you like it, if not, get your money back or whatever. But I would never troll people and scream "Don't buy!!!" for any game, because my experience is subjective.

I would want to encourage people to try for themselves and see.

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Bugs are subjective: how can CTDs be subjective?

Many ways were employed to distract from the point. The game was extremelly buggy at release, on 4th december. A comparison to other games was irrelevant.
Knowing that Dead State might not be the buggiest game in video game industry changed nothing.
Then a comparison to Bethesda, inaccurate comparison by the way, was made to distract from the point.

Arkadia7 said:

By the way, a few seem under some misconception that the review was taken down. Not the case. The review in fact, has been voted the most helpful review by an overwhelming margin (92%), by thousands of other steam users. So apparently, a hell of a lot of people support and agree with the review, and steam has no issue with the review either. As it should be. Companies know that if they censored a review based on a request by a whining developer who didn't like it, that would be very bad public relations, and very bad for business. Steam isn't stupid.

You can go to the steam page right now and see it standing in all its glory. It is the first review you see. http://store.steampowered.com/app/239840/

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Steam has no issue with the review. Steam had no issue validating the removal of a previous thread in similar conditions.

Steam is only interested in this kind of reviews display as they help to increase the sales.
The situation now (as it was for the previous case) is different: it drives people not to buy. It gained influence in a way that Steam cant support since Steam is here to take a cut on each sale.
Contrary to the last time, the affair went out. The last time, few people reported that a negative and popular post was banned just before beta release. This time, the story went out of the restricted circles.
When people got tortured by the US Army, it was all okay as long as it was confined within the circles of the military personal: pics were circulating. The hierarchy had no interest in removing or even stopping the acts of torture. When the pics hit outside the inner circles, it turned out a different story.

Steam is no different. Steam validated the last removal with no problem.

This case also exhibits how Steam built their rendering system: the product has an overall positive return whereas the most approved review by far is a negative and that negative reviews receive more support than positive.

The system is open to manipulation: getting 100 people to write one review each, thumbing each other up, has more weight than one negative review that gathers thousands of views.

Zephyr said:

Side point on 'free speech'. The Constitution guarantees the right to free speech — with conditions. There are laws against defamation, slander, sedition, inciting to violence, and threats. With free speech comes responsibility and conditions.

But you will notice that said free speech does not come with a guarantee of access to any specific forum except for 'freedom of the press'. Therefore, you can publish whatever you wish in accordance with legal guidelines. But you can't force a media outlet to give you access via their channels, whether radio, TV, internet forum or whatever. So Double Bear was within its rights to ask Steam to take down any review it didn't like. Steam was free to comply with their wish or deny the request.

Now that decision may not sit well with many readers, but there was no 'censorship' involved. It's commerce in action. If people want to get together and slag Double Bear and its employees, they are free to do so — on their own website and/or forums. They can take to Twitter, email, personal phone calls, Facebook, whatever, and yammer all they want. No one is denying them the right to do so.

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All they cant do is put it in a place where it could gain momentum and influence.
As long as they can go to the South Pole and get the penguins to listen to their report, it is okay.

It is obvious that censoring is what exhibits an assault on freedom of speech.

So let me get this straight…

1. Bunch of indie devs release a game a bit too early instead of keeping it in early access mode.

2. Some douche begins spamming their forums and keeps demanding a public apology.

3. Said user gets banned and posts his sad story on steam forums where his review gets flagged by a dev.

4. Some reddit users take notice of this "great injustice" and start throwing more oil in the flames.

5. Hardworking independent game developers are forced to spend their precious vacation time to sort out this mess instead of spending quality time with friends & family.

Such a crime against humanity indeed….

GhanBuriGhan said:

Anyway I'm out. Bye Watch, thx for the good days.

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GBG, I do make the rational plea on behalf of the Watch that you reconsider your stance here on leaving as you are certainly one of the posters I've come to respect in the short time that I've been a member. We need the thoughtful strong pillars of reason and insight to remain here to broaden perspectives and I for one would miss that if indeed, you did chose to leave.

Please try not to let an issue like this nor the differing opinions of others on this topic emotionally influence your decision.

Dez said:

3. Said user gets banned and posts his sad story on steam forums where his review gets flagged by a dev.

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It appears to have been quite the opposite. In the Steam forum, at least, the guy (at first) wasn't telling a sad story, just complaining about the buggy state of the game at the time of release. But then started the whole "poor indy devs" affair and the slobbering twits and blog post from whom I suppose to be Brian Mitsoda's wife/ sister/ cousin (or all of the above)... Sad, maybe, but I would call it ridiculous instead.

Pessimeister said:

GBG, I do make the rational plea on behalf of the Watch that you reconsider your stance here on leaving as you are certainly one of the posters I've come to respect in the short time that I've been a member. We need the thoughtful strong pillars of reason and insight to remain here to broaden perspectives and I for one would miss that if indeed, you did chose to leave.

Please try not to let an issue like this nor the differing opinions of others on this topic emotionally influence your decision.

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Farewells are all subjective.

DBs response was terrible. For someone like me who has not paid any attention at all to the game, this gives me a very bad first impression. I now have DB linked to being a rude company in my mind, reality or not.

Everything has been said several times. I'll close this thread now. All the people who only came to RPGWatch only for this discussion can go home now.