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Default Kingmaker - Review @ Gamesxtreme

November 6th, 2018, 10:27
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
Ah, I forgot about camping conversations. People that only camp on overland map miss out on a lot of very awesome VOICED interactions.
I barely rest at all. I've built up a party that's very strong on healing, and with two people who can cast "Calming Touch" (Community Domain) to remove fatigue. I got a little jittery over the quest timers, and so far not a single one has run out as I push my party to the limit (not even the hidden ones). There's no space for "fun and games" in this party! Either you're hardcore or you get dropped.

So yeah, most of my resting is done in the capitol, because it takes the least amount of time and also removes death's door etc.

Edit: Let me put that into perspective. Even if you keep removing fatigue, they will eventually reach a point where they just waddle around, despite only carrying a light amount, and a whooping -6 to Strength which can't be removed with spells (it's not even a debuff, it's just "there").

At this point, you'd think resting would be in order, right? Wrong! That's when you whip out Mass Bull's Strength and Haste so your party can waddle a bit faster. Waddle, I say! *Whip!* *Whip!* Keep waddling! *Whip!* *Whip!* Waddle faster!
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November 6th, 2018, 10:45
Oo; Didn't know you enjoy the boot camp style @Maylander
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November 6th, 2018, 10:53
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I barely rest at all. I've built up a party that's very strong on healing, and with two people who can cast "Calming Touch" (Community Domain) to remove fatigue. I got a little jittery over the quest timers, and so far not a single one has run out as I push my party to the limit (not even the hidden ones). There's no space for "fun and games" in this party! Either you're hardcore or you get dropped.

So yeah, most of my resting is done in the capitol, because it takes the least amount of time and also removes death's door etc.

Edit: Let me put that into perspective. Even if you keep removing fatigue, they will eventually reach a point where they just waddle around, despite only carrying a light amount, and a whooping -6 to Strength which can't be removed with spells (it's not even a debuff, it's just "there").

At this point, you'd think resting would be in order, right? Wrong! That's when you whip out Mass Bull's Strength and Haste so your party can waddle a bit faster. Waddle, I say! *Whip!* *Whip!* Keep waddling! *Whip!* *Whip!* Waddle faster!
You can remove exhaustion with Restoration, paladin's lay on hands and a few other ways.
And if you are doing this because of timers, there is no need. Timers are lax enough that you can rest normally.
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November 6th, 2018, 12:38
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Oo; Didn't know you enjoy the boot camp style @Maylander
I don't, but I'll be damned if I miss anything because people were slacking off!
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
You can remove exhaustion with Restoration, paladin's lay on hands and a few other ways.
And if you are doing this because of timers, there is no need. Timers are lax enough that you can rest normally.
Restoration costs diamond dust, so that's not an option. Even level drain tends to expire after 24 hours, so my comrades will just have to walk it off! I had to use a single Restoration cast in a certain massive tomb, as the tank was at level 1 and kept dying every time she got hit by a spectre, but that's about it. I was annoyed by that. Also had to use 6 camping supplies in that tomb.

I was aware Paladins could remove fatigue with one of their martyr traits, but I didn't know it could go beyond that. Interesting. I was already thinking of using one as my tank in my next run instead of Valerie, so I will have to look into that.

As for the timers: I'm referring to the hidden ones, not the stated ones. I've got plenty of time on those, but there are so many hidden ones that I've heard of: Arrive somewhere and someone's dead, or don't do a companion quest fast enough and it locks up or bugs out.
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November 6th, 2018, 13:18
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I don't, but I'll be damned if I miss anything because people were slacking off!

Restoration costs diamond dust, so that's not an option. Even level drain tends to expire after 24 hours, so my comrades will just have to walk it off! I had to use a single Restoration cast in a certain massive tomb, as the tank was at level 1 and kept dying every time she got hit by a spectre, but that's about it. I was annoyed by that. Also had to use 6 camping supplies in that tomb.

I was aware Paladins could remove fatigue with one of their martyr traits, but I didn't know it could go beyond that. Interesting. I was already thinking of using one as my tank in my next run instead of Valerie, so I will have to look into that.

As for the timers: I'm referring to the hidden ones, not the stated ones. I've got plenty of time on those, but there are so many hidden ones that I've heard of: Arrive somewhere and someone's dead, or don't do a companion quest fast enough and it locks up or bugs out.
2 Diamond dust is not a lot. Also you can use Heal spell to remove exhaustion.
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November 6th, 2018, 13:35
It's 100g per cast, which means 600g to remove it from a party. And Heal and similar powerful spells aren't an option, as it's needed for every character.

Waddle on!
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November 6th, 2018, 14:37
Hmm I don't really like the sound of hidden timers…

What's this about a cost for making new characters?

Daniel.
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November 6th, 2018, 15:08
Yea, the timers thing is a major turn-off for me. They should put a simple option -
"Exploration mode. This mode removes all timers within the game, intended for players who like to take their time and explore every nook and cranny. All timers, whether hidden or obvious, are disabled in this mode."
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November 6th, 2018, 15:38
Originally Posted by darklord View Post
Hmm I don't really like the sound of hidden timers…

What's this about a cost for making new characters?

Daniel.
Quite a few quests have hidden timers that either fail the quest or give it a different outcome. Because I'm pushing the party like a pack of mules, I haven't actually come across any yet, but I've seen quite a few confirmed cases in the tips & tricks thread in the general forum.

And yes, there's a cost to hiring mercenaries. There are quite a few regular companions, with quests and what not, but if you want to custom create people (beyond your main character), you have to hire them as mercenaries, which costs quite a bit of gold depending on your level (because it affects the starting level of the mercenary; a level 10 mercenary costs a lot more than a level 1).

The key is to hire them early on, as they're quite cheap then.

Originally Posted by Arkadia7 View Post
Yea, the timers thing is a major turn-off for me. They should put a simple option -
"Exploration mode. This mode removes all timers within the game, intended for players who like to take their time and explore every nook and cranny. All timers, whether hidden or obvious, are disabled in this mode."
It's actually a bit strange that the game doesn't have that, as it does have a lot of different difficulty options you can set at the start of the game.
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November 6th, 2018, 16:21
Originally Posted by Arkadia7 View Post
Yea, the timers thing is a major turn-off for me. They should put a simple option -
"Exploration mode. This mode removes all timers within the game, intended for players who like to take their time and explore every nook and cranny. All timers, whether hidden or obvious, are disabled in this mode."
At best this could turn off timers for side quests like some of the companion quests.

But main quest is also connected with certain event that keeps happening and keeps getting stronger. You cannot just turn it off. It controls everything.
If you turn it off, which would mean event just waits for your to show up and nothing bad happens if you ignore it, you can also make your kingdom way stronger than it should be in that part of the game. And that makes whole kingdom management part pointless, you might as well put it all on easy or on auto.
Also the challenge of the game comes from not being able to prebuff for every encounter. That means you cannot be allowed to rest after every encounter like you could in older D&D games.
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November 6th, 2018, 17:44
You could still turn off all timers if you fixed the connected quests accordingly. But this would probably require more work than they are willing to spend on this. (Or more time than we're prepared to wait for.)

I just hope they take a different approach with any new pathfinder game.
Last edited by Cacheperl; November 6th, 2018 at 18:41.
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November 6th, 2018, 18:35
I would think that the timers overall aren't going to sit well with most players, and while nothing may be done with this game, maybe the quests will function differently in any future projects. I'm sure I missed a few quests in chapter one myself, and I pretty much used every day that I had available.
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November 7th, 2018, 01:42
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
You could still turn off all timers if you fixed the connected quests accordingly. But this would probably require more work than they are willing to spend on this. (Or more time than we're prepared to wait for.)

I just hope they take a different approach with any new pathfinder game.
Me too. As Archangel mentioned, its got a lot to do with being tied to Kingdom management, but I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of it. I'm getting used to it and managing it better now, but doesn't mean I like it.
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November 7th, 2018, 10:46
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Me too. As Archangel mentioned, its got a lot to do with being tied to Kingdom management, but I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of it. I'm getting used to it and managing it better now, but doesn't mean I like it.
Yeah, same. My fear is that it will lead me to do X-Y-Z every time I replay it, because it's the most efficient route. In most games (like Baldur's Gate), I'll find some route that I more or less enjoy, but I tend to change my approach a bit depending on the style of play.

Specific examples:
- Going for Celestial Fury, Flail of Ages, Robe of Vecna and so on depending on party setup.
- As a Druid, there's a good chance I'll go to Trademeet early on, but as a Fighter (or similar), I'm likely to do De'Arnise Keep instead. Or the Sphere if I'm a Wizard/Sorcerer.

You get the idea. It doesn't change things a great deal, but just enough to spice it up. I suspect that won't be the case in Kingmaker, which is a bit of a shame.
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November 7th, 2018, 11:16
Yeah, totally agree. I like a freedom of doing thing in order of my preference. In similar vein, I feel there isn't much freedom of changing your party composition either if you don't make custom characters. I will always end up traveling with Valerie (tank), Octavia (either as a mage or thief), and likely will travel with Tristian (healer). That really leave me with only 2 spots to change companions around.
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November 7th, 2018, 11:37
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Yeah, same. My fear is that it will lead me to do X-Y-Z every time I replay it, because it's the most efficient route. In most games (like Baldur's Gate), I'll find some route that I more or less enjoy, but I tend to change my approach a bit depending on the style of play.

Specific examples:
- Going for Celestial Fury, Flail of Ages, Robe of Vecna and so on depending on party setup.
- As a Druid, there's a good chance I'll go to Trademeet early on, but as a Fighter (or similar), I'm likely to do De'Arnise Keep instead. Or the Sphere if I'm a Wizard/Sorcerer.

You get the idea. It doesn't change things a great deal, but just enough to spice it up. I suspect that won't be the case in Kingmaker, which is a bit of a shame.
You are too obsessed with timers.
There is just two things you need to mind. When you get a main quest, go do it right away, don't spend 14 days in Kingdom leveling up advisors or claiming regions.
But you don't need to rush the main quest, you can explore the region where it is taking place without failing it. Taking 1-2 weeks more to explore shit will not kill you.

Companion quests, some are timed, some are not. If the game says to hurry with them go do them immediately. Same if the quest is dependant on some temporary NPC (like first Valerie quest). But for example, Amiri's beasts to kill don't go away. You can do those at anytime.
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November 7th, 2018, 11:39
I now ran both Act 2 and Act 3 with different parties. Each of those cleared the maps differently. Some did only areas around Act 2 main quest, others went into act 3 areas and cleared them early while waiting for Act 2 to activate or during it.
Same with Act 3, I did more quests and areas with some groups than with others. And I certainly did them in different orders.

As long as you keep to my advice in previous post, timers are not a problem.
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November 7th, 2018, 19:13
Agreed @Archangel. But I won't rehash my take on the timers again. I feel they are a great incline in dynamic RPG world building.

I'm in early Chapter 3 and having a ball exploring areas I missed my first run. There are a lot of little nooks and crannies to find, some with challenging encounters and fun things to discover. You can do all this and more with no rush at all if you give yourself 5-10 days to explore, then return to take care of events and do your kingdom stuff. The problem I feel is that the game does not convey these things in a great way, so most first time players are going to feel either pressured or lost because of it. But the game gives great leniency with its timers and time element. Lovely game.
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November 7th, 2018, 19:44
There are two things that, to me, are extremely frustrating about this game and keep me from buying it.

The first is the bug riddled mess the game was/still is. But given time, I guess this will eventually be fixed.

The other, and more aggravating aspect, is the quest timer issue. I find the concept ridiculous and makes it feel like a job, really. When I am playing games, I want to prepare, explore, rest as much as I want in an inn or camp etc. Moreover, I want to complete the quests in the order I choose, when I choose, not the game. Losing content because I did not follow the timeframe the devs wanted me to is just off putting and I will probably take a hard pass on this one because of that.

I really hope devs think "features" through with care and consideration before releasing their games. No wonder this is getting slammed on steam.
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November 8th, 2018, 10:19
Good news on Kingdom management!

https://owlcatgames.com/forums/showt…ll=1#post35941

Changes to kingdom in 1.1, "kingdom manual" incoming

To the OP and everyone else who commented: I understand your concerns about kingdom management, and believe me, we hear you here at the studio. We are currently working on a huge, thorough document that explains a lot of the kingdom mechanics, provides examples and advice, and answers a lot of the questions you guys have. We have already entered the editing phase, so it shouldn't take long from now. It will be posted on Steam forums and here as soon as it's ready.

Also, in the coming 1.1 patch there will be many improvements to the way kingdom management works - that includes mechanical changes, better notifications and small quality-of-life improvements.
(As a side note, I wish you could see the size of the patch notes we're compiling for 1.1 - the document is about as long as all the previous patch notes combined…)
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