Voxel Quest - Out of Money

HiddenX · May 10, 2016

The dev of Voxel Quest is out of money right now, but tries to continue the project somehow:

What does the future hold?

No point in dancing around the issue, I am out of money and trying to figure out what the next step is. Whatever happens, I am continuing to work on VQ, as that does not cost me anything but time. But I might need to allocate much of that time to a paying job, unless I can figure something else out.

The one thing that I have decided, for certain, is that I am returning everyone's money: Kickstarter backers, investors, patrons, and preorders (and anything else). Everyone will keep their rewards regardless. I made this decision before I even launched my Kickstarter campaign, although I've only talked about it with a few people. I am taking this step regardless of success or failure.

If I have to work another job, I will probably begin this return process as soon as possible (and it will take time to accumulate everything). Otherwise I will begin returning money when profitable. I am still planning to release something in the short term, as well as the source code.

I can understand if anybody is disappointed or angry, but I assure you no one has a heavier heart than I do. I invested over $100k of my own money, debt, and equity into this, in addition to about $500k of work (accounting for overtime and opportunity cost). I spent about a decade working in this area without any sort of return (other than it being "fun"), and over the past 3 years I put in well over 10,000 hours. I dragged my family through all of this as well. Nonetheless, if there is anything more I can do, please let me know.

This is not the end, but it is still a depressing position to be in. Still, I can't help but be grateful to have been given an opportunity to work full time on something like this.

As I have mentioned in the past, writing a game engine is a feasible (if unwise) thing to do, if you pick your battles carefully. I simply had too many battles, and too many directions I tried to tackle at once. My todo list never once shrank faster than it grew. Only at the tail end of this did I decide (for better or worse) to burn my entire set of goals and focus on one "simple" goal (although I must stress that nothing is simple).

If I sound like I have a bleak outlook, I don't. I still believe in this and I have something that I am proud of. This is the first time in my life I have worked on something of this magnitude, spanning 50k to 100k lines of code, and not wanted to scrap the entire thing. I've tackled a lot of new ground so I suppose the road is destined to be bumpy, but I continue to learn from my mistakes.

If anyone has any ideas of what I should do next, I am all ears. At the very least, I feel obligated to be transparent about my current situation. There is no outcome that I fear, I mostly just want to do what is best for everyone, even if that simply means getting a job and paying everyone back. I will probably investigate past offers I have gotten for funding, but I don't know if that will necessarily bear fruit.

One last thing I would like to make clear is that nobody owes me sympathy, and I am not even asking for it. My situation is a result of my own choices, and the only thing that I can make better is the future. All things considered, I think this journey has been great so far, and I am curious to see what the future holds.

[...]

More information.

Bedwyr · May 10, 2016

This is why going into games full time, especially indie, is economically untenable and probably a bad wager. It's about even with the starving artist model. Some break even, some break into the big time, most don't. The most sustainable thing most people could do is to take on the dreaded day job and use that to make money and consider game making your avocation rather than your profession.

I see a mutating market with less opportunity on the demand side for those making PC games (mobile will keep getting bigger and focus more intensely on casino mechanics… some exceptions but they won't make bank compared to F2P). The supply of games overall is a glut right now. Go into something different that uses the same skills like dedicated engineering (simulation, visualization, etc) or web work or data science (can include traditional liberal arts fields like history; there is a current gap there). For now, games should be considered a career and investment long shot. Expect to lose your shirt and be happily surprised if you don't.

Silver · May 11, 2016

What kickstarter needs is to develop a mentor model. What I mean is have someone experienced look over and give advice to these projects and advise on things like budgeting, production issues and marketing.

Couchpotato · May 11, 2016

Silver said:
What kickstarter needs is to develop a mentor model. What I mean is have someone experienced look over and give advice to these projects and advise on things like budgeting, production issues and marketing.

I agree as to many projects are unrealistic for the amount raised. The good news is a few PR & Marketing firms do help developers plan their kickstarter game for cheap.

Cherno · May 11, 2016

Silver said:
What kickstarter needs is to develop a mentor model. What I mean is have someone experienced look over and give advice to these projects and advise on things like budgeting, production issues and marketing.

Kickstarter has so many different kind of projects that it's not feasable to have mentors for all these things. Videogames are only a small part. Additionally, such information is readily available on the internet and in public libraries.

Silver · May 11, 2016

Cherno said:
Kickstarter has so many different kind of projects that it's not feasable to have mentors for all these things. Videogames are only a small part. Additionally, such information is readily available on the internet and in public libraries.

I kind of agree as Fig can only pull this off because they focus on only video games. Still kickstarter needs to do something even if its only publishing some good practice guidelines.

As this is your first post let me welcome you to the site!

Zloth · May 11, 2016

The one thing that I have decided, for certain, is that I am returning everyone's money: Kickstarter backers, investors, patrons, and preorders (and anything else). Everyone will keep their rewards regardless. I made this decision before I even launched my Kickstarter campaign, although I've only talked about it with a few people. I am taking this step regardless of success or failure.

Wait, what?? Why do a Kickstarter if you're just going to give the money back? Maybe the intent was to give the money back after the game turned a profit? Except he said the intent was to do this even if it failed...

screeg · May 11, 2016

My advice would be to cut your losses. Otherwise you're just going to be struggling for the rest of your life. And what's this about returning the Kickstarter money? What's the point of economically crippling yourself, on top of all the other sacrifices?

forgottenlor · May 11, 2016

screeg said:
My advice would be to cut your losses. Otherwise you're just going to be struggling for the rest of your life. And what's this about returning the Kickstarter money? What's the point of economically crippling yourself, on top of all the other sacrifices?

Well, the developers of other failed projects, and even the developers of late projects have been called crooks, scam artists, and whatnot. Even the developers of successfully completed projects have been accused of such things (I remember this happening on this site to both Darkest Dungeon and Dead State, both decent completed games, if not what some people wanted them to be). This guy seems to go almost too far in the other direction. I think giving away the code and the assets are enough if he is planning to quit.
There are donors who are happy to have funded an idea, failed or not, and there are people who will rage and throw a tantrum if they receive anything less than a masterpiece.

Dragonx · May 11, 2016

So this guy rised what like 70k and did this game himself? How did he blow 70k in a year? i mean it only costs me 20k usd a year for rent and food etc. And why is he working on it himself since it is so ambitious, plus the claim he spent 500k worth of his own time. His bullshit smells bad and i think hes being dishonest here.

Watch in a few weeks or months there will be another sob sad story and why he will fail for bankcruptcy and no money will be returned but that he tried or some other bullshit.
But i for one dont see how he spent 70k of the kickstarter. His website screenshots barely has any real game development in it, just pixel backgrounds with maybe some sprite placeholders to pull wool over investers heads.

Bedwyr · May 11, 2016

Dragonx said:
So this guy rised what like 70k and did this game himself? How did he blow 70k in a year? i mean it only costs me 20k usd a year for rent and food etc. And why is he working on it himself since it is so ambitious, plus the claim he spent 500k worth of his own time. His bullshit smells bad and i think hes being dishonest here.

Watch in a few weeks or months there will be another sob sad story and why he will fail for bankcruptcy and no money will be returned but that he tried or some other bullshit.
But i for one dont see how he spent 70k of the kickstarter. His website screenshots barely has any real game development in it, just pixel backgrounds with maybe some sprite placeholders to pull wool over investers heads.

Your complaint may be right, but seriously. Don't project your own cost-of-living onto other people and proclaim it as universal and moral. That's rubbish.

Dragonx · May 11, 2016

Bedwyr said:
Your complaint may be right, but seriously. Don't project your own cost-of-living onto other people and proclaim it as universal and moral. That's rubbish.

So if you plan to start a small business or niche project you will go live and spend like a King instead of the bare minimum, and if anyone can't survive on 20k a year USD, when they have to survive, then your doing something wrong. You do know about 80% of the population of USA earns less than 18k a year, so you telling me im forcing projections based on myself as an American citizen, but it based on facts.

forgottenlor · May 11, 2016

Dragonx said:
So if you plan to start a small business or niche project you will go live and spend like a King instead of the bare minimum, and if anyone can't survive on 20k a year USD, when they have to survive, then your doing something wrong. You do know about 80% of the population of USA earns less than 18k a year, so you telling me im forcing projections based on myself as an American citizen, but it based on facts.

He says he's worked on the project 10 years, so his estimated (unpayed) wages are 50k a year. He claims to have worked 10,000 hours, which is possible. If you've ever worked on a game (and I've only done so on rpgmaker, and just for fun, I'd never take anyone's money) than you realize what that entails. I can produce about an hour's worth of content with about 10 hours of work, and that's not creating everything from scratch (music graphics, and a working engine are all finished for me). He also claims he worked on his project for 3 years full time, so its quite possible he was in debt before receiving the 75k, part of which went directly to kickstarter. I'm also not sure if he used this all for his wages, or if he bought assets like music, art and what not. The guy also has a spouse who he may or may not support. I think in a lot of these cases we don't know enough to assume whether someone is dishonest or simply not competent enough to finish the project they've started. In most cases I assume the latter. I think most of these people have no idea what they are getting into and figure out they don't have the ability to complete what they want to do, assuming that video game development is easy or fun.

you · May 11, 2016

Depends where you live; where I live a unit that is 500 sqft cost $20,000 a year; that ignores other expenses. Hardly living like a king. Also the amount he raised was a bit less when you include associated kickstarter expense.

Dragonx said:
So if you plan to start a small business or niche project you will go live and spend like a King instead of the bare minimum, and if anyone can't survive on 20k a year USD, when they have to survive, then your doing something wrong. You do know about 80% of the population of USA earns less than 18k a year, so you telling me im forcing projections based on myself as an American citizen, but it based on facts.

Bedwyr · May 11, 2016

Dragonx said:
So if you plan to start a small business or niche project you will go live and spend like a King instead of the bare minimum, and if anyone can't survive on 20k a year USD, when they have to survive, then your doing something wrong. You do know about 80% of the population of USA earns less than 18k a year, so you telling me im forcing projections based on myself as an American citizen, but it based on facts.

That's incorrect. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

The US median is $50k. Median means 50% make less than that number. The 80th percentile is higher than 50k, not 18k.

Also as "you" said it's wrong to abstract your circumstances to the entire US. Consider, say, Oakland CA where average rental rates range by neighborhood from $1500 to $3500. You might be able to share a trailer for less than $1000 a month. Maybe. By contrast Oklahoma City the average is $800. Those are massive differences with a large diversity of numbers all over the country.

Dragonx · May 11, 2016

Bedwyr said:
That's incorrect. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

The US median is $50k. Median means 50% make less than that number. The 80th percentile is higher than 50k, not 18k.

Also as "you" said it's wrong to abstract your circumstances to the entire US. Consider, say, Oakland CA where average rental rates range by neighborhood from $1500 to $3500. You might be able to share a trailer for less than $1000 a month. Maybe. By contrast Oklahoma City the average is $800. Those are massive differences with a large diversity of numbers all over the country.

If you believe in all the bs statistics, most people live in a $1500 a month apartment with 4-6 people, 3 adults working full time jobs. Every country loves to rise their median statistics for political reasons but seeing as theres more than 600 billion a year in welfare and programs for people making less than $13k a year in USA, then you see the reality 18k is not very low to live off of in USA. I know i eat about $10 worth of food a day thats $3550 a year and im pretty well built and healthy.

Dragonx · May 11, 2016

forgottenlor said:
He says he's worked on the project 10 years, so his estimated (unpayed) wages are 50k a year. He claims to have worked 10,000 hours, which is possible. If you've ever worked on a game (and I've only done so on rpgmaker, and just for fun, I'd never take anyone's money) than you realize what that entails. I can produce about an hour's worth of content with about 10 hours of work, and that's not creating everything from scratch (music graphics, and a working engine are all finished for me). He also claims he worked on his project for 3 years full time, so its quite possible he was in debt before receiving the 75k, part of which went directly to kickstarter. I'm also not sure if he used this all for his wages, or if he bought assets like music, art and what not. The guy also has a spouse who he may or may not support. I think in a lot of these cases we don't know enough to assume whether someone is dishonest or simply not competent enough to finish the project they've started. In most cases I assume the latter. I think most of these people have no idea what they are getting into and figure out they don't have the ability to complete what they want to do, assuming that video game development is easy or fun.

So you buy that he spent 600k worth of time on 10 years on his game and he barely has anything to show for it besides freeware demos that probably came bundled with unity 3D or whatever engine he was using. Do you see anywhere where he spent his 600k of development time on the game anywhere on his company website?

Bedwyr · May 12, 2016

Dragonx said:
If you believe in all the bs statistics, most people live in a $1500 a month apartment with 4-6 people, 3 adults working full time jobs. Every country loves to rise their median statistics for political reasons but seeing as theres more than 600 billion a year in welfare and programs for people making less than $13k a year in USA, then you see the reality 18k is not very low to live off of in USA. I know i eat about $10 worth of food a day thats $3550 a year and im pretty well built and healthy.

edit: check that, you're just deflecting. You claimed that 80% of the US makes at or less than 20k and I called you on it. Where are you getting this $1500 a month apartment thing from and what does that have to do with anything? You made a specific claim and I showed you the data demonstrating that you were wrong. Don't deflect the error with more rubbish and cite your sources. Wiki gets theirs from the St. Louis fed bank. That's about as good a gold standard as you can get.

Please rephrase what you're trying to say. That 18k is good enough to live on? Fine. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. That 80% makes less than that? Not fine. Because it's not true. Don't give me that "believe in bs statistic" garbage. What's the substance of your argument? Do you demand that no one should ask for more when making a Kickstarter campaign? On what grounds should they do that? Should they do so if they were making 50k or 70k before? Why? You're tapdancing around your argument and failing to actually make one all the while citing nonsense. Make your darn argument outright or just stop.

Here I'll help make my best stab at it for you because you can't seem to make it yourself:

"It is immoral for a developer to ask for more than $20k on Kickstarter in all cases because that is ethical abuse of supporters' money and a person can live on $20k anywhere in the US."

Have I got that right?

getter77 · May 12, 2016

...Folks are best served actually looking through the updates on the site proper for ages now...or at least the thread on rpgcodex...to better get a feel for what he's been trying to do and the progress made.

Short version? Guy works hard for years at an enormously difficult thing at the deep fringes of engine/game dev that does not have a well trodden path like most others---still intends to persevere but reckons it will be even harder going from here as it IS an enormously difficult thing.

Also, a Patreon has been set up at the behest of many folks who don't want refunds and generally just chipped in to support his road unto the future---the whole KS thing and expectations on both sides complicated things more than anticipated alongside life and progress intervening as they do....not exactly an unheard of occurrence!

Dragonx · May 12, 2016

Bedwyr said:
edit: check that, you're just deflecting. You claimed that 80% of the US makes at or less than 20k and I called you on it. Where are you getting this $1500 a month apartment thing from and what does that have to do with anything? You made a specific claim and I showed you the data demonstrating that you were wrong. Don't deflect the error with more rubbish and cite your sources. Wiki gets theirs from the St. Louis fed bank. That's about as good a gold standard as you can get.

Please rephrase what you're trying to say. That 18k is good enough to live on? Fine. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. That 80% makes less than that? Not fine. Because it's not true. Don't give me that "believe in bs statistic" garbage. What's the substance of your argument? Do you demand that no one should ask for more when making a Kickstarter campaign? On what grounds should they do that? Should they do so if they were making 50k or 70k before? Why? You're tapdancing around your argument and failing to actually make one all the while citing nonsense. Make your darn argument outright or just stop.

Here I'll help make my best stab at it for you because you can't seem to make it yourself:

"It is immoral for a developer to ask for more than $20k on Kickstarter in all cases because that is ethical abuse of supporters' money and a person can live on $20k anywhere in the US."

Have I got that right?

I got the $1500 from your own previous post to this one, you listed that yourself. so yea. I didnt say its not immoral or not right for him to ask for 70k or any amount. I am just surprised since beginning fo reading this story how he spent 70k within a year after his kickstarter succeeded and his claims of 500k worth of programming time on a game that basically has nothing to show for it besides pixeled art and sprite placeholders. I think most single A games are made complete and released for less than 500k.

Voxel Quest - Out of Money

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