Top 10 CRPGs of all time

Ubereil said:

And I do disagree . It's called ROLEPLAYING game for a reason . I don't really mind you likeing D2, just as little as I mind pepole likeing FPSes. What I DO mind is that pepole think that roleplaying games are games where you run around and kill monsters in order to gain levels and find cool items since that has nothing to do with roleplaying.

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Actually, if taken word for word every game is a role-playing game. In each game you play out a role. In Diablo you play the role of the generic hero belonging to a certain class, that kills pretty much everything in his path, and follows a linear storyline. It all depends on perspective.

I understand why you do not like it when people associate/compare mind-less hack&slash games with serious/complex games such as ad&d ones. And I agree they cannot be compared with games like Baldur's Gate, but I personally don't mind. Those hack&slash games have their role to play(no joke intended), just like shooters(which I also enjoy playing once in a while), and I don't mind calling them role-playing games also. Again, my opinion.

Welcome to the forum, danutz_plusplus.

First I want to thank you for defending Diablo2:LOD. It is probably the most bashed game on rpg forums worldwide, but you will never get hard core role players to accept it as a role playing game. And in many ways(dialogue, complex quests, story and NPC interaction,etc) it isn't. But it has a role playing aspect, and clearly draws elements from the genre.

The problem with most of the arguments contemptuosly dismissing D2 is that the people admit up front they got bored with the hack n slash and never finished it. The role playing aspect of Diablo( if there is one) comes into effect only when you are building complex characters with certain skillsets, which hardly anyone who plays the game once ever does. Personally, I don't see a huge difference in building say a Bowazon or the complex mathematically maximized Hammerdin, than building a halfling Fighter/Rogue or whatever. But that's where the role playing stops and the action enters in--though frankly the NWN OC where you wander vaguely similar tileset dungeons fighting spawned monsters and opening identical chests doesn't seem much different to me.

I think the dismissal of D2 is mostly prompted by some of the goonish types that play, hack and cheat on the ladders, and who wouldn't be able to last fifteen minutes in a game like Baldur's Gate. Some people just ruin things for the rest of us.

magerette said:

Welcome to the forum, danutz_plusplus.

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Thanks.

magerette said:

First I want to thank you for defending Diablo2:LOD. It is probably the most bashed game on rpg forums worldwide, but you will never get hard core role players to accept it as a role playing game. And in many ways(dialogue, complex quests, story and NPC interaction,etc) it isn't. But it has a role playing aspect, and clearly draws elements from the genre.

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Exactly how I feel. It does have a role playing aspect. Even if it lacks in other departments, that make serious rpgs, serious rpgs. I personally felt I was role-playing, especially the first time I played it.

magerette said:

The problem with most of the arguments contemptuosly dismissing D2 is that the people admit up front they got bored with the hack n slash and never finished it. The role playing aspect of Diablo( if there is one) comes into effect only when you are building complex characters with certain skillsets, which hardly anyone who plays the game once ever does. Personally, I don't see a huge difference in building say a Bowazon or the complex mathematically maximized Hammerdin, than building a halfling Fighter/Rogue or whatever. But that's where the role playing stops and the action enters in--though frankly the NWN OC where you wander vaguely similar tileset dungeons fighting spawned monsters and opening identical chests doesn't seem much different to me.

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I think the reason most rpg-players dismiss D2, is because they feel they do not have an environment in which they can role-play. Which is true. But D2 has something else. After finishing D2 once, I replayed just for the fun of building character builds and experimenting with them and with different items. Which is also a kind of a role-play, even if it is a crude version of what ad&d rpgs have. I guess what D2 is missing is social role-play.

And yeah, NWN 1's OC was kinda blunt. The whole plague thing left me a bit empty.

IMO, Diablo 2 is a good game...NWN is a good game..regardless of genre or pigeonholing.

What I dislike on Diablo 2 is not hack'n'slash. I don't like it because it's so mindless and terribly easy. You only run and kill, run and kill. There is almost no tactics. You can't even throw explosive potions over the low walls. Diablo 2 is one from the most stereotype games I have ever played.

Artran said:

What I dislike on Diablo 2 is not hack'n'slash. I don't like it because it's so mindless and terribly easy. You only run and kill, run and kill.

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Uuuhh, dude, that actually is hack'n'slash .

Moriendor said:

Uuuhh, dude, that actually is hack'n'slash .

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I don't think so. I know hack'n'slash playing from roguelike games (Dungeon Crawl etc.) and it's far from Diablo 2 feeling. Hack'n'slash *can* be very entertaining but must be challenging.

Artran said:

What I dislike on Diablo 2 is not hack'n'slash. I don't like it because it's so mindless and terribly easy. You only run and kill, run and kill. There is almost no tactics. You can't even throw explosive potions over the low walls. Diablo 2 is one from the most stereotype games I have ever played.

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The normal difficulty is easy, but have you played Nightmare or Hell difficulty? That's where you died a lot. It's hard and annoying as hell. I remember every time I ran into a lightning enchanted monster I usually saved and exit. Either that or loose experience.

I played it on nightmare and it was boring. First I played it with assassin with specialization on traps. Second time I played it with Druid on Iron man. Nothing changed - so I quit.

EDIT: But on the other hand there is a lot of excellent ideas. Horadric cube, skill tree, Set items ... I just like more tactical games.

Artran said:

I played it on nightmare and it was boring. First I played it with assassin with specialization on traps. Second time I played it with Druid on Iron man. Nothing changed - so I quit.

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Iron man as in hardcore? The mode where when you die you stay dead?

Artran said:

EDIT: But on the other hand there is a lot of excellent ideas. Horadric cube, skill tree, Set items ... I just like more tactical games.

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I also usually prefer more tactical games, but I found Diablo 2 highly addictive. Now I'm curios about Hellgate London, from the ex Blizzard-North guys.

Since i replay Icewind Dale at work for the moment, and seeing the comments of D2, which i never played (thought Diablo was Gauntlet in a modern version, not my cup of tea, and one version was enough for me... but it was fun...).

Question is. Where does Icewind Dale belong? Because, its not roleplaying. Its hacknslash in a Isometric system poorly adapted for it. Or?

And the more fun, is, as the game that borrows heavily in concept from Diablo (1) and therefore i even think 2. Where does Divine Divinity belongs. That IS a hacknslash, but never got really bad rep because its a hacknslash... as it was. Or?



I have no opinion whats is this and what is that. I only play the game thats fun. And for me, its all about a game, but i seek out games where i am the saviour of worlds. Hm... well if aint it real life its good to be it somewhere... and that story never gets old for me!

danutz_plusplus said:

Iron man as in hardcore? The mode where when you die you stay dead?

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Yes. I couldn't remember the exact name

Strange thing - I'm also looking forward to Hellgate - even if I don't like Diablo

Artran said:

Strange thing - I'm also looking forward on Hellgate - even if I don't like Diablo

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Yeah, Hellgate shows a lot of promise.

mute said:

Question is. Where does Icewind Dale belong? Because, its not roleplaying. Its hacknslash in a Isometric system poorly adapted for it. Or?

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I believe it belongs to the role-playing genre just as much as Baldur's Gate. Sure it's doesn't have character interaction as strong as BG, but it's practically the same thing, only lighter. Personally, I loved IWD more than BG(even though I haven't managed to finish BG yet. shame on me). And I think I would play Icewind Dale 2 first before playing BG. Just because of the setting, which I loved in IWD.

Does it mean that Diablo belong there too?

Hm realizing that i am adding fuel to the fire and driving this thread further off topic. Better stop

Heh, we could start a "Is Diablo an RPG?" thread...

Übereil

Please Don't!!

We can define terms in a strict & restrictive fashion or a casual & inclusive fashion.

Is rap or hip-hop music ? "No", if we apply a strict standard, "yes" if we apply a casual standard. There are 3 elements in music : melody, harmony and rhythm. Rhythm is considered foundative and primary. Rap and Hip-Hop often have no melody or harmony, just like segments of some Bartok's compositions. If we classify them as NOT music, then we are applying the strict standard of definition, and not the casual standard. The strict standard states that for something to be considered music it has to implement *all* 3 elements. The casual standard stipulates that just 1 element needs to exist.

It's the same with Rpg's. IWD and Diablo are not Rpg's if we demand total implementation of ALL traditionally recognized rpg elements in a restrictive and strict conceptual manner.

The great thing about this forum, is that it allows for a very inclusive, diverse and respectful Rpg discussion. It *simultaneously* lets purists be the staunch traditionalists they are, as well as tolerating the more modern hybrid Rpg'ers.

Concepts don't usually maintain stagnant rigidity, they usually expand in terms of their inclusive scope.

That being said, I have my own traditional preferences in terms of Rpg tastes, which I'd describe as 80% traditional / 20% non-traditional.

No offense guys but this thread is turning into crap.



Lets get back on topic.

Arpyjee said:

We can define terms in a strict & restrictive fashion or a casual & inclusive fashion.

Is rap or hip-hop music ? "No", if we apply a strict standard, "yes" if we apply a casual standard. There are 3 elements in music : melody, harmony and rhythm. Rhythm is considered foundative and primary. Rap and Hip-Hop often have no melody or harmony, just like segments of some Bartok's compositions. If we classify them as NOT music, then we are applying the strict standard of definition, and not the casual standard. The strict standard states that for something to be considered music it has to implement *all* 3 elements. The casual standard stipulates that just 1 element needs to exist.

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Human language is NOT matematic formula. Words in language are in constant change because of use in different contexts and most of them are not terms (e.g carbon dioxide etc.). So words like music, poetry, RPGs, games are in essence indefinable. Thus attempts to define them must allways be unsuccessful and are absolutely useless.

What I still don't understand is why Baldur's Gate is an rpg and Icewind Dale isn't one? It's the same engine, same gameplay. The only differences that I know of is in the scope of the game and the fact that Baldur's Gate feature's a lot of interaction between party members, and party members with NPCs. Is there something I'm missing?

I understand trying to label Diablo as a non-rpg, but there's a huge difference between Icewind Dale and Diablo. IWD has pretty much the same combat/interaction system as BG, so labeling IWD a hack&slash would imply that BG is also a hack&slash. No?