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December 13th, 2010, 13:19
Oblivion is not even close to better than Gothic. I feel wrong just using them in the same sentence.
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December 13th, 2010, 13:27
Well, it wouldn't be all randomly generated. Primarily, it would be the landscapes and potentially the seabed.

The towns and dungeons would probably be a mixture, with the "important" towns being handmade and the smaller ones based on blueprints, with as much handmade detail as would be feasible with the allotted resources.

As for dungeons, I think they already feel very "random" or "samey" - so there wouldn't be much difference, really. I'd settle for, say, 5 quality handmade dungeons for each area - and the rest could be procedurally generated. Bethesda have the resources to make that work, I think - should they wish to.

The reason I think TES would work well with the right approach to this, is that the content already sucks pretty bad for the most part. So, they might as well get a generator to create it and make a proper "singleplayer MMO" with meaningful content where it's needed. I long for a huge and varied world in a game, where I can feel like there's a point to playing - rather than the endless grind of a standard MMO. Even better if they made it cooperative multiplayer - where procedurally generated content is much better for the kind of quests you prefer, when playing with other people. Something that's not so scripted and which doesn't require much in the way of pauses for reading/listening - as that doesn't work well in a multiplayer environment.

But, I realise that most people probably prefer a tighter structure. I just think we have other games to satisfy my needs in that way. PB, for instance, are much better at that - and I like the variety.

I also think procedurally generated content is something that has never been done right, and which may yet surprise us all one day - when they manage to create a convincing illusion with it.

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December 13th, 2010, 13:53
You want a rogue. There are some very good rogues out there that sorta do what you describe.

I think ADOM would be right up your alley.
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December 13th, 2010, 13:55
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
You want a rogue. There are some very good rogues out there that sorta do what you describe.
Rogues are entirely random and they're not immersive enough.

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December 13th, 2010, 14:02
Some of them are not entirely random. For example ADOM has random dungeons, but within certain limitations. You won't find Iron Golems in a dungeon that should be for low level characters.

Also the overland map isn't random at all. The towns stay the same, quests stay the same, just the dungeons change. Not their locations.

Of course there is always Ledgermain. An excellent ROGUE with a great story. Although it's not random enough for you I would think.

As for immersive….well it all depends on what you need to get immersed within a game. ADOM was immersive enough for me as I was trying to battle my way out of the lower depths of the dungeons. If you need graphics for that then you'll have to wait a until indies can make games like that without spending a couple dozen years.
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December 13th, 2010, 14:09
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Some of them are not entirely random. For example ADOM has random dungeons, but within certain limitations. You won't find Iron Golems in a dungeon that should be for low level characters.

Also the overland map isn't random at all. The towns stay the same, quests stay the same, just the dungeons change. Not their locations.

Of course there is always Ledgermain. An excellent ROGUE with a great story. Although it's not random enough for you I would think.

As for immersive….well it all depends on what you need to get immersed within a game. ADOM was immersive enough for me as I was trying to battle my way out of the lower depths of the dungeons. If you need graphics for that then you'll have to wait a until indies can make games like that without spending a couple dozen years.
Well, you're probably right - I haven't followed the genre very closely. I've played about a dozen of them and they all felt like the content was more or less entirely random.

Yeah, I need graphics for immersion - and I need a certain quality of production values. I don't see that happening from an indie developer for many years.

Mount and Blade was a definite step up, but it still feels random to me.

What I'm talking about is more like a modern Arena/Daggerfall - with procedurally generated content done right - mixed with handcrafted content. Something that has yet to happen, and which might not even be possible. I just think it WILL be possible sooner rather than later, but it requires a lot of funds and a strong desire/vision.

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December 13th, 2010, 14:14
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I think it's safe to say that most fans don't want randomly generated content. At least that's the impression that I get.
Just an unimportant side-note : At least in Drakensang 2 I know that some chests are randomly placed.

I think this is the kind of "randomness" that doesn't hurt anybody.




"Randombness" ???????
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December 13th, 2010, 15:03
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Just an unimportant side-note : At least in Drakensang 2 I know that some chests are randomly placed.

I think this is the kind of "randomness" that doesn't hurt anybody.

"Randombness" ???????
Yes, there is already a big discussion thread about random generated stuff vs static and personally I'm okay with random generated loot, but not the dungeons, cities or landscape. They should be handcrafted (like in Gothic). Same applies to major artifacts.
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December 13th, 2010, 15:12
I hope this time vampires get a reasonable storyline
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December 13th, 2010, 15:13
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, it wouldn't be all randomly generated. Primarily, it would be the landscapes and potentially the seabed.

The towns and dungeons would probably be a mixture, with the "important" towns being handmade and the smaller ones based on blueprints, with as much handmade detail as would be feasible with the allotted resources.

As for dungeons, I think they already feel very "random" or "samey" - so there wouldn't be much difference, really. I'd settle for, say, 5 quality handmade dungeons for each area - and the rest could be procedurally generated. Bethesda have the resources to make that work, I think - should they wish to.

Sounds a lot like a game I remember from the mid 90s. It was called Daggerfall.
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December 13th, 2010, 15:15
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Sounds a lot like a game I remember from the mid 90s. It was called Daggerfall.
Are you saying Daggerfall represents the best possible game that could be created with modern technology and current Bethesda resources?

If so, that would indeed be sad.

Even so, Daggerfall had some great things going for it. The worst thing about it, in my opinion, were the horrible bugs and technical weaknesses. Not to mention the typical Beth crap mechanics.

Lots of people love it, though, so it might not be all bad

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December 13th, 2010, 15:24
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Are you saying Daggerfall represents the best possible game that could be created with modern technology and current Bethesda resources?
Of course not. I'm simply saying that general plan sounds very similar.

Daggerfall would have been incredible if they had actually pulled it off without all the bugs and glitches. Still, most of us have no need for that many square miles of explorable area, or the endless number of generic fetch quests that come with it.

Bethesda would be better off spending more resources on improving things like writing, voice acting, and animation. As well as improving the stability of their engine.
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December 13th, 2010, 15:51
Originally Posted by Ergonpandilus View Post
Yes, there is already a big discussion thread about random generated stuff vs static and personally I'm okay with random generated loot, but not the dungeons, cities or landscape. They should be handcrafted (like in Gothic). Same applies to major artifacts.
I dream to one day see a ultima underworld style dungeon with sensible architecture and commuties of different creatures (both hostile and non-hostile) living in it. It would be like another world inside the open sky one.
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December 13th, 2010, 16:39
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
I dream to one day see a ultima underworld style dungeon with sensible architecture and commuties of different creatures (both hostile and non-hostile) living in it. It would be like another world inside the open sky one.
Have you played Arx Fatalis?
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December 13th, 2010, 17:13
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
I'm not sure I trust Bethesda anymore to go for something that subtle. Especially after they made the Akaviri into humans in Oblivion. But it would be nice, yeah!
Well there was humans on Akavir. The "loremasters" are saying that the vampiric snakes eating them just mean that they enslaved them. That's what they did to the red dragons (eating & enslaving).
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December 13th, 2010, 17:20
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No matter how much I loathe Bethesda mechanics and writing - I'm in love with the open world concept, and I think that if you separate mechanics and writing - they're the BEST open world games in existence, even better than the Gothics.
If you separate mechanics, youīre moving to a very arbitrary territory though.
For example, with such a rigid enemy/loot level scaling as implemented in Oblivion, the world actually isnīt open at all in this regard. You may be free to go wherever you want, but you are still locked out of substantial portion of content, significance of your charīs progression gets a major hit, verisimilitude is outta window and most of whatīs left of exploration is sightseeing.
Imo, how leveling is handled has such a significant influence on how an open world clocks, itīs pretty much inseparable from it and it can make it or break it. As implemented in Oblivion itīs in direct contradiction with the gameīs supposed openendedness.

As for Skyrim, assuming it concerns Akaviri invasion of Skyrim during civil war, I hope the major focus will be on politics, not the invasion itself. Other wishes include no or very low-key level scaling, imaginative world/dungeon/quest design, non-shoddy work with lore and major tweakage of skill increase system (Iīd probably prefer it to be replaced by exp based system entirely), etc.
Hopefully the game will be playable without having to wait 3 years for a pool of mods large enough to make it so.
Iīm really interested in what direction Bethesda takes it, thatīs for sure.

Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
I dream to one day see a ultima underworld style dungeon with sensible architecture and commuties of different creatures (both hostile and non-hostile) living in it. It would be like another world inside the open sky one.
I second the Arx Fatalis rec, should be a solid fix.
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December 13th, 2010, 18:35
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
If you separate mechanics, youīre moving to a very arbitrary territory though.
For example, with such a rigid enemy/loot level scaling as implemented in Oblivion, the world actually isnīt open at all in this regard. You may be free to go wherever you want, but you are still locked out of substantial portion of content, significance of your charīs progression gets a major hit, verisimilitude is outta window and most of whatīs left of exploration is sightseeing.
Imo, how leveling is handled has such a significant influence on how an open world clocks, itīs pretty much inseparable from it and it can make it or break it. As implemented in Oblivion itīs in direct contradiction with the gameīs supposed openendedness.
Of course it's separable, as mods have proved very nicely.

I think Bethesda are doing some great things in terms of the open world structure, and I really enjoy the total freedom in how to approach so many things.

So, it's really the mechanics and the writing that's holding the games back.

I don't see anything arbitrary about that, though I agree it's hard to imagine a Bethesda game with strong game design

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December 13th, 2010, 19:52
I was bitching pretty heavily over at the Codex when I thought GameBryo was going to be recycled once again, but I have to admit I am quite happy with the news that supposedly Bethesda cobbled together their own new, shiny engine this time.

I also have to admit that I don't believe it, though.

How could they have done so in such a short timespan? Look how long it took them to get GameBryo in playable shape (please try to stifle your laughter) for Oblivion? It took them what, three years? Now, less than one year later, we're to believe they've already developed something new from scratch for Skyrim?

I smell a giant rat. I think it's really still GameBryo, just heavily modified and rebranded. If microstutter rears its ugly head again I'll snap. I swear I will.

(To clarify, I am referring to the time between major projects, not since Oblivion was shipped)
Last edited by Crispy; December 13th, 2010 at 20:33.
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December 13th, 2010, 21:11
Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
I was bitching pretty heavily over at the Codex when I thought GameBryo was going to be recycled once again, but I have to admit I am quite happy with the news that supposedly Bethesda cobbled together their own new, shiny engine this time.

I also have to admit that I don't believe it, though.

How could they have done so in such a short timespan? Look how long it took them to get GameBryo in playable shape (please try to stifle your laughter) for Oblivion? It took them what, three years? Now, less than one year later, we're to believe they've already developed something new from scratch for Skyrim?

I smell a giant rat. I think it's really still GameBryo, just heavily modified and rebranded. If microstutter rears its ugly head again I'll snap. I swear I will.

(To clarify, I am referring to the time between major projects, not since Oblivion was shipped)
The engine was really the smallest complaint I had about Oblivion. Once they start to make RPGs again, I don't care for the engine.
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December 13th, 2010, 21:15
Are you of the opinion that Fallout 3 advanced their RPG skills, even in the slightest?

If so, does it add at all to your enthusiasm or belief in Skyrim's potential?

Personally I think there will be some pleasant surprises along the storyline, interaction and even lore fronts, simply because of the massive amount of criticism Oblivion suffered from. Even Todd can see that he can't just shovel raw shit without sweetening it up somewhat.

I wish they'd bring LeFay back.
Last edited by Crispy; December 13th, 2010 at 21:28.
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