Legend of Grimrock - Gold!

Well a key difference in modern games is just that everyone has abilities or powers that they can use, not just a couple of spellcasting classes. This adds a great deal of strategy and complexity. It's easy to overlook just how simple a lot of our old favorite games really were. If you think back to the original Dungeon Master, there wasn't even character creation there, you just picked from a selection of pregens. There were no races, and you didn't even really have a class, just a rating in a couple of different skills. Of course it's possible that my memory my be fuzzy on some parts, Dungeon Master was a very long time ago.

But of course just because a game is based on an old school game doesn't mean that it has to be as simplistic as one. Many modern indies with old school influences add considerable levels of customization and complexity to the old school formula. The question is whether LoG is like this or not.

darklord said:
I see what you are saying, they are very different games. There are parallels though, in Mass Effect you shoot your gun till the enemy is dead stopping occasionally to use a special power. (just like casting a spell in LoG in fact)

Hopefully many people have room for both types of games in their collection. :)

Daniel.
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If you think back to the original Dungeon Master, there wasn't even character creation there, you just picked from a selection of pregens. There were no races, and you didn't even really have a class, just a rating in a couple of different skills. Of course it's possible that my memory my be fuzzy on some parts, Dungeon Master was a very long time ago.
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Actually, you could "reset" every character and basically shape him/her yourself. But it was very simplistic with only a handful of skills that you'd increase through use - like the TES games.
 
fadedc said:
It's easy to overlook just how simple a lot of our old favorite games really were. If you think back to the original Dungeon Master, there wasn't even character creation there, you just picked from a selection of pregens. There were no races, and you didn't even really have a class, just a rating in a couple of different skills. Of course it's possible that my memory my be fuzzy on some parts, Dungeon Master was a very long time ago.
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I am playing Dungeon Master right now after watching a longplay of a guy who really knew Dungeon Master 2. Dungeon Master have four classes, about 15 hidden skills and about 6 attributes that connects with one another. That alone makes it more advanced than the majority of modern RPG's. Ignoring the portrait the only thing the "pregens" add are the attributes where races seems to be accounted for. Classes and skills depends on how you play. Every weapon have about 3 different attacks that affects hitchance, staminadrain and time of execution. There are also about 18 different spells that can also be boosted by a level 1-5 rune. Items you find usually have unique properties to them, a feature that was really strong in Dungeon Master 2 (it's uncommon to see such diversity among weapons in a game).

Foes are usually hardcore and often need a special strategy to defeat them, which usually means they take no damage from certain weapons, deal poison or steal your stuff.

So Dungeon Master from 1987 is definitely a more advanced title than most of the modern ones.
 
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Well LoG does have some newer options than the originals had, for example you can now have Talents, Skills and Traits, Talents are things like light armour proficiencies, Skills are things like Assassination, Bows and Dodge, Traits espcially are pretty cool, here's a few examples.

Daemon Ancestor:
Your Great Grandfather had fiery eyes
Resist Fire +25

Fist Fighter:
You know how to survive tavern brawls
Attack Power +6 when unarmed

Head Hunter: (Minotaur)
Race Minotaur Required
Attack +3 for each skull carried (I will add here, - EPIC!!)

Healthy:
You are exceptionally healthy
Vitality +2

Daniel.
 
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Here's a breakdown on Assasination to, it's pretty cool.

Assassination:
Description: Knowledge of Stealth and precise deadly attacks
Lvl Ability:
2 Backstabbing (2x damage when attacking enemy from behind)
5 Strength +1
8 Reach Attack (Attack with melee weapons from back row)

Daniel.
 
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That does sound ok, actually :)

About Dungeon Master, I don't recall having to use tactics - except for the very last encounter. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but if you learned the old "turn, move back" trick - you could "circle strafe" 99% of all enemies to death - in pretty much all these DM games.
 
Yeah I believe that can be a problem in DM style games, the guys at Almost Human have been advancing the AI from what I read to make it much harder to do that sort of thing. Apparently they have some "tricks" up their sleeves! ;)

Daniel.
 
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DArtagnan said:
That does sound ok, actually :)

About Dungeon Master, I don't recall having to use tactics - except for the very last encounter. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but if you learned the old "turn, move back" trick - you could "circle strafe" 99% of all enemies to death - in pretty much all these DM games.
Click to expand...

It is not as if any game doesn't have exploits - it is up to the player as to whether they exploit them or not. Gothic 2, Baldurs Gate, Fallout - full of exploits.
 
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Well, if we bring Wizardry into the discussion we can probably dismiss all modern games as simple :)
 
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bjon045 said:
It is not as if any game doesn't have exploits - it is up to the player as to whether they exploit them or not. Gothic 2, Baldurs Gate, Fallout - full of exploits.
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I don't consider turning, moving backwards, and attacking in a timed fashion an exploit.

It would be like calling sneaking an exploit in Skyrim - because it makes the game too easy.

Certainly, any game can become a challenge if you deliberately avoid efficiency within the design - but I'll leave that to people who enjoy that sort of thing.
 
DArtagnan said:
I don't consider turning, moving backwards, and attacking in a timed fashion an exploit.
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I killed the Beholder in EOTB as follows: Open door, hit beholder, close door……open door, hit beholder, close door…….open door, hit beholder, close door,…..etc.

Would you call this an exploit? :)
 
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9.3 Euros if you preorder ?! much more reasonable than expected really.
preordered from GOG.
 
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I know at £7.50 I feel kind of guilty! :blush:

Daniel.
 
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Asdraguuhl said:
I killed the Beholder in EOTB as follows: Open door, hit beholder, close door……open door, hit beholder, close door…….open door, hit beholder, close door,…..etc.

Would you call this an exploit? :)
Click to expand...

I don't think there's any useful objective definition.

An exploit is just using a weakness to your own advantage - and it can be a fair or unfair exploit. That has to come down to the individual. So, essentially, any sound tactic is an exploit - if we're being literal.

Personally, I would consider that door trick something outside the intended design - though it's hard to be certain. You'd have to be the developer to know that.

I wouldn't enjoy it, because it breaks the immersion barrier too much.

The "turn, move, attack" tactic requires timing and coordination - especially with multiple enemies. It seems to me to be well within the intended design mechanics - and it would be impossible to determine what "movement pattern" is acceptable and what isn't for balance. It would be futile trying to curtail your movement - because you wanted to avoid being too efficient.

But the door trick (which is familiar to me) is too obviously not intended - for my part.
 
Ah so it seems like DM had more going on then I remember, not surprising given how long ago it was. Nonetheless I still disagree that it's more complicated then most modern games. Having a few classes that go up when you use them isn't exactly complex, I'd rather have more complex customization through skill trees, perk or skill point selection, etc.

But certainly DM was ahead of it's time, because you could at least customize your character a little by choosing what skills to use/practice. Most games of time time didn't even have that.

JemyM said:
I am playing Dungeon Master right now after watching a longplay of a guy who really knew Dungeon Master 2. Dungeon Master have four classes, about 15 hidden skills and about 6 attributes that connects with one another. That alone makes it more advanced than the majority of modern RPG's. Ignoring the portrait the only thing the "pregens" add are the attributes where races seems to be accounted for. Classes and skills depends on how you play. Every weapon have about 3 different attacks that affects hitchance, staminadrain and time of execution. There are also about 18 different spells that can also be boosted by a level 1-5 rune. Items you find usually have unique properties to them, a feature that was really strong in Dungeon Master 2 (it's uncommon to see such diversity among weapons in a game).

Foes are usually hardcore and often need a special strategy to defeat them, which usually means they take no damage from certain weapons, deal poison or steal your stuff.

So Dungeon Master from 1987 is definitely a more advanced title than most of the modern ones.
Click to expand...
 
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