Goodbye from me

TomRon · February 19, 2020

Morrandir said:
That's what I don't understand. Why do people apparently feel the need to defend anything in context of their taste in leisure activities? If someone says he doesn't like a game or feature, but I do, why should I have to defend it? It's not that I would win something if I managed to persuade him. I just say my opinion and move on.

As if you ever COULD persuade someone to like something they don't. I'm all for discussions regarding merits and flaws in games, mechanics or pretty much anything, and sometimes it leads to me trying out a game I might've assumed I wouldn't like before being convinced otherwise. But to think you can change someones opinion is indeed a lost cause.

Morrandir · February 19, 2020

My point was solely about taste in leisure activities. That's important.
It's not about politics (in its broadest sense), general behaviour (like scaring off members), economics, philosophy. When I'm discussing these topics, I indeed try to "defend" my views. (more abot that further down)

lackblogger said:
Are you implying that your statement is infallible and then hoping to pre-empt any response by implying that any response other than agreement is inherently a hostile act?

No.

Are you not making an attempt at persuasion by suggesting people shouldn't aim for persuasion in their posts?

In fact I don't. I said that I don't understand, which is an implicit request for explanation. That wasn't a rhetorical questions. I meant it. (Perhaps my English skill isn't good enough to make this clear.)
Also I said how I personally handle it. Again neither an implicit nore explicit attempt at persuation.

Are you not replying to someone else's post when you say you don't understand why people reply to things other people have said, which can always be interpreted as attack/defend depending on the extent of one's tactical agenda?

I am replying. And of course it can be interpreted as attack/defend. It's not in my power if it's done or not. But this very discussion is not about taste in a leisure activity, but rather about general communication. So here I perfectly understand why others try to engage in an argument, yourself and myself included.

However - and now we're finally very offtopic - I have a different approach to arguments than most (?) others do: When I'm in an argument that is handled fair and rational from both sides (like this one) and the other side persuades me of their point of view, then I didn't lose. In fact I won. I won new insights leading to a new assessement. The other side didn't win anything. Also the other way round, if I persuade the other side, I wouldn't call it winning the argument. However I might be happy that I managed to explain my viewpoint properly.

On the other hand if I have an actual opponent I'm competing with in some context, and the argument is just a tool to reach my goals and beat him, things might of course be different. But that's really seldom, even in "real life".
And trying to get a little bit more on-topic: Never ever have I seen a member of the watch in any discussion as an opponent. We're just some random guys sharing the same hobby, exchanging information and insights. And that's great.
(I don't engage in the politics&religion forums.)

Do you feel my reply to your reply is attacking in nature or just conversational in nature? Aggressive in nature or humorous in nature?

Definitly not attacking, aggressive or humorous, but a little more than conversational. Why do you ask?

TomRon said:
As if you ever COULD persuade someone to like something they don't. I'm all for discussions regarding merits and flaws in games, mechanics or pretty much anything, and sometimes it leads to me trying out a game I might've assumed I wouldn't like before being convinced otherwise. But to think you can change someones opinion is indeed a lost cause.

That's precisely my point. It's wasted energy.

lackblogger · February 19, 2020

TomRon said:
As if you ever COULD persuade someone to like something they don't. I'm all for discussions regarding merits and flaws in games, mechanics or pretty much anything, and sometimes it leads to me trying out a game I might've assumed I wouldn't like before being convinced otherwise. But to think you can change someones opinion is indeed a lost cause.

Not really. Maybe the person you are directly in conversation with, or arguing with, or debating, or attacking, or correcting... or whatever way one feels the need to describe it on any given day, but you are forgetting the 1,000 people who are not joining in that conversation and are just looking upon it, either from the peanut gallery or from the genuinely curious and undecided perspective.

So the nature of the seemingly lost cause usually has nothing to do with persuading the person one is currently engaging, the cause is more of an attempt to, for example, hold back the spread of fake news, or to, conversely, attempt to try and force through some fake news, and all the other kinds of etcetera that motivate people to say "hey, wait a moment, that definitive statement you just made... it's not definitive."

Morrandir said:
My point was solely about taste in leisure activities. That's important.

While assumption is usually the first mistake of any communication, sometimes something is so obvious that to not assume something would actually be the absurd position, like for example I'm now going to assume that everyone on this site has the same taste in leisure activity, at least in primary subject matter of communication.

Equating variations of taste within that said leisure activity to a whole separate leisure activity is a stretch too far IMO.

I feel sure that on any Hiker forum there will be people 'hotly debating' what is the best footware for XYZ climb, but they are all still discussing the same leisure activity.

henriquejr · February 19, 2020

lackblogger said:
I don't understand what you don't understand. Comments are never isolated abstractions that everyone should instinctively ignore once read. The very nature of communication is to engage other people.

Are you implying that your statement is infallible and then hoping to pre-empt any response by implying that any response other than agreement is inherently a hostile act?

Are you not making an attempt at persuasion by suggesting people shouldn't aim for persuasion in their posts?

Are you not replying to someone else's post when you say you don't understand why people reply to things other people have said, which can always be interpreted as attack/defend depending on the extent of one's tactical agenda?

Do you feel my reply to your reply is attacking in nature or just conversational in nature? Aggressive in nature or humorous in nature?

Jesus, now I miss those Philosophy classes I skipped

joxer · February 19, 2020

I don't. The teacher was extremely boring with her "death on vacation" presentation style. A group of us found more fun to read stuff ourselves then go crazy brainstorming and discussing to the point of exhaustion. Because life sucks we parted ways and didn't keep contact. But because life rocks, all those wacky ideas can sometimes be revived with new acquaintances and friends.

Morrandir · February 19, 2020

lackblogger said:
I feel sure that on any Hiker forum there will be people 'hotly debating' what is the best footware for XYZ climb, but they are all still discussing the same leisure activity.

Perhaps they do. Again I don't really understand it. When the other hiker likes this special footware, why should I persuade him to change his mind? What do I gain? Perhaps I'm just to egoistic and they all just want to help the others to make the best decision for themselves.

Also in this specific example of footwear it could be about more objectifiable issues (durability, waterproofness, traction etc.) where it might make more sense to argue. This is seldom the case when it comes to art (like video games). Tbh I didn't mention this difference in the previuos post, but only earlier in a direct answer to purpleblob.

Hastar · February 19, 2020

TomRon said:
As if you ever COULD persuade someone to like something they don't. I'm all for discussions regarding merits and flaws in games, mechanics or pretty much anything, and sometimes it leads to me trying out a game I might've assumed I wouldn't like before being convinced otherwise. But to think you can change someones opinion is indeed a lost cause.

Some people here changed my mind on Battle Brothers. I wasn't even going to try it because of the graphics. 1500 hours later it's one of my all time favorites. :biggrin:

wolfgrimdark · February 19, 2020

Morrandir said:
…When the other hiker likes this special footware, why should I persuade him to change his mind?

One thing of note in regards to human nature is the desire to confirm ones own reality and view point. A lot has to do with ones own self-confidence and perceived validity.

I think a lot of the more heated discussions you see (and it doesn't matter if it is leisure or more important as the human mind doesn't really distinguish the two when it comes to how these emotions/feelings occur - even if the conscious intellect will give different weight on importance) it is because people will feel threatened if their own view is challenged.

EDIT: And they will feel more confident they are right when their view is supported … I believe this is why religions like to convert people to their faith - the more that believe as they do …well then their religion must be right ... and of course many other reasons.

Speaking in very general terms people tend to like it when their decisions, views, etc. are confirmed in a positive way by others. When others do the opposite and question those decisions, put them down, or suggest they are bad views, it can make one defensive on an emotional level.

The more people support and confirm you view the more confident you feel it is the correct and right one. When that doesn't happen you can be filled with doubt, cognitive dissonance, and anxiety.

That isn't always bad of course … in fact one should question ones views, etc. But people have various degrees of confidence and self-esteem. If everyone hates this game you play it may raise some doubt in your mind … am I weird for liking it? why am I the only one who likes it? Perhaps you will start to loose enjoyment of the game as doubt nags at you … or perhaps you dig in your heels and get mad or block everyone out, refusing to accept this negative view on something you enjoy.

I am not sure if I am explaining this well as its a complex subject to summarize without being misunderstood. Everyone has various levels of tolerance, how much confidence and esteem they have, how well they can integrate different points of view, etc.

Maybe someone spent a lot of time and money, pondering all kinds of things, to pick out these great shoes. Maybe more money then they could afford. They have some doubt if it was a wise choice but they also want to enjoy the shoes.

Then along comes someone who goes "Wow you got those over-priced shoes? They look nice but really they are super poor for running. That air pad thing is just a gimmick."

The person might bristle or get defensive at that comment because they already had some doubt deep in their mind - and now this person is pecking at that.

EDIT: Or to take your question - maybe you picked out this shoe and now want others to help confirm your decision by agreeing with you that the shoe you got was the best choice in the end. So maybe you try to persuade others to see that so they go … wow your right, those really are great shoes. Now I know why you brought them!

One example. It applies to most anything from taste in books, games, movies to bigger items like religion, politics, etc. Importance and degree vary but the emotional feeling that comes up from agreement or disagreement is still there.

How well people handle it depends on so many things - emotional state at the time, stress levels, energy, there own current state of confidence and esteem, how often their view was "attacked", etc. Even someone who normally can shrug things off can reach a point of burn-out.

lackblogger · February 19, 2020

henriquejr said:
Jesus, now I miss those Philosophy classes I skipped

joxer said:
I don't. The teacher was extremely boring with her "death on vacation" presentation style. A group of us found more fun to read stuff ourselves then go crazy brainstorming and discussing to the point of exhaustion. Because life sucks we parted ways and didn't keep contact. But because life rocks, all those wacky ideas can sometimes be revived with new acquaintances and friends.

We never had any philosophy classes. The UK has always shied away from teaching philosophy to the plebs as it could disrupt the status quo and lead to guillotines, etc.

So I must be a natural!

TomRon · February 19, 2020

lackblogger said:
Not really. Maybe the person you are directly in conversation with, or arguing with, or debating, or attacking, or correcting… or whatever way one feels the need to describe it on any given day, but you are forgetting the 1,000 people who are not joining in that conversation and are just looking upon it, either from the peanut gallery or from the genuinely curious and undecided perspective.

So the nature of the seemingly lost cause usually has nothing to do with persuading the person one is currently engaging, the cause is more of an attempt to, for example, hold back the spread of fake news, or to, conversely, attempt to try and force through some fake news, and all the other kinds of etcetera that motivate people to say "hey, wait a moment, that definitive statement you just made… it's not definitive.

Fair point, I actually didn't think about the times when you debate with someone that is factually wrong, because that's a different beast. I was only referring to actual subjective opinions, not false facts.

daveyd · February 19, 2020

Well PB it's probably a good idea to take a break from posting here if it's not making you happy. Many of us do enjoy reading your reviews and thoughts on games even if we don't always agree. Anyway, I will probably see you around on the discord or forums for Realms Beyond / Solasta since we're both looking forward to those games.

Alrik Fassbauer · February 20, 2020

purpleblob said:
Just want to say bye to everyone.

It was getting rather obvious that I'm firmly in "minority" with just about everything and I am getting rather tired of hearing opinions that are always opposite to mine with no one really being able to understand how I feel - completely out of place.

Welcome to the club. I feel exactly the same. I'm not looking into the forums much anymore these days.

I wish you nice gaming, though.

wolfgrimdark said:
One thing of note in regards to human nature is the desire to confirm ones own reality and view point. A lot has to do with ones own self-confidence and perceived validity.

I think a lot of the more heated discussions you see (and it doesn't matter if it is leisure or more important as the human mind doesn't really distinguish the two when it comes to how these emotions/feelings occur - even if the conscious intellect will give different weight on importance) it is because people will feel threatened if their own view is challenged.

EDIT: And they will feel more confident they are right when their view is supported … I believe this is why religions like to convert people to their faith - the more that believe as they do …well then their religion must be right … and of course many other reasons.

Speaking in very general terms people tend to like it when their decisions, views, etc. are confirmed in a positive way by others. When others do the opposite and question those decisions, put them down, or suggest they are bad views, it can make one defensive on an emotional level.

The more people support and confirm you view the more confident you feel it is the correct and right one. When that doesn't happen you can be filled with doubt, cognitive dissonance, and anxiety.

That isn't always bad of course … in fact one should question ones views, etc. But people have various degrees of confidence and self-esteem. If everyone hates this game you play it may raise some doubt in your mind … am I weird for liking it? why am I the only one who likes it? Perhaps you will start to loose enjoyment of the game as doubt nags at you … or perhaps you dig in your heels and get mad or block everyone out, refusing to accept this negative view on something you enjoy.

I am not sure if I am explaining this well as its a complex subject to summarize without being misunderstood. Everyone has various levels of tolerance, how much confidence and esteem they have, how well they can integrate different points of view, etc.

Maybe someone spent a lot of time and money, pondering all kinds of things, to pick out these great shoes. Maybe more money then they could afford. They have some doubt if it was a wise choice but they also want to enjoy the shoes.

Then along comes someone who goes "Wow you got those over-priced shoes? They look nice but really they are super poor for running. That air pad thing is just a gimmick."

The person might bristle or get defensive at that comment because they already had some doubt deep in their mind - and now this person is pecking at that.

EDIT: Or to take your question - maybe you picked out this shoe and now want others to help confirm your decision by agreeing with you that the shoe you got was the best choice in the end. So maybe you try to persuade others to see that so they go … wow your right, those really are great shoes. Now I know why you brought them!

One example. It applies to most anything from taste in books, games, movies to bigger items like religion, politics, etc. Importance and degree vary but the emotional feeling that comes up from agreement or disagreement is still there.

How well people handle it depends on so many things - emotional state at the time, stress levels, energy, there own current state of confidence and esteem, how often their view was "attacked", etc. Even someone who normally can shrug things off can reach a point of burn-out.

I habve these days more and more the feeling as if discussions are more and more perceived as a way of competition.
A behaviour being carried over from gaming, maybe ß Because nearly all games these days are about competoition. Be it against NPCs or in MMOs. Fighting is competition - competition like "who survives last ?"

And … there's a current, very serious change out there in male - especially younger male - behaviour.

we see here in Germany that younger men - and older ones as well - become more and more selfish. Policepersons, amulancemen and helpers of any kind are attaced while they are carrying out their duty, like helping a helpless person, or helping an really insured person.
Men have become so selfish in their behaviour that they attack helpless people. One has been beaten down. lies on the floor ? Additional beatings with shoes or boots have become the norm rather than the exception. Men have begun throwing people in front of trains arriving in railway stations. We didn't have that decades ago. Illegal racings - sometimes performed by young men with NO driving license ! are killing people. (We now have had a recent chance in law that allows judge courts to sentence them for murder.)

Where does this selfish, egoistic behaviour mainly in young men come from ? Someone or something must have taught them that this violence is a good way to get rid of people, that the rush of illegal racings through towns are a good thing, no matter whether people are killed or not. And these drivers are so much egoistic that they often don't even have the thought that something *might* get out of control in such an illegal racing !

Something or someone must have taught them that egoistic behaviour is … goo. They don't care about the injured ones, they attack the ambulancemen instead.

I read that this egoistic behaviour often has something to do with power, accouring to experts / scoientists of the sociel field. People believe that policepersons and ambulandemen and firemen have power, and that's why they attack them. I have even read that these attackers think like "they help him/her - why do they not help ME ?" That's utterly selfish and egfoistic behaviour.

Someone or something must taucht them that being egoistic, tht being selfish is good.

And that carries over into forum discussions everywhere.

Someone has a different opinion than me ? Time to give him/her a good verbal beating!
Someone is wrong in the internet ß Time to give him a good verbal beating !
Someone is right in the internet ß Time to give her/him a good verbal beating !

An experiment : Feel into your self what kinds of emotions (and thoughts) the word "humility" evokes inside of you.

Because that word and its meaning is currently totally burned. If I talk about being humble, people will laugh at me or declare me as a lunatic in other forums I'm not in.

Svartie · February 20, 2020

I 've enjoyed reading PB posts too, never really participated in any. Sad post, but i just can't understand how someone could feel frustration over a argument on the net (!), about a gameplay style (!!) of a game genre (!!!). Take it easy

Dez · February 20, 2020

I want to say loud and clear. I love real time with pause combat systems. They simply are the best.

I don't care one bit if you think that turn based is better.

txa1265 · February 20, 2020

Svartie said:
I 've enjoyed reading PB posts too, never really participated in any. Sad post, but i just can't understand how someone could feel frustration over a argument on the net (!), about a gameplay style (!!) of a game genre (!!!). Take it easy

I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t understand by now how the internet and social media work and their real world impact on our everyday lives. I mean, seriously - this isn’t 1990 anymore.

It has been very well proven across the years that the online interactions can have every bit as real of an impact as ‘in person’ interactions. And as such the mental and physical stress they can cause is equally real. And it has also been shown that the things we care about actually matter to us ... and if that is games, then it is games. Please don’t be judging people here for THAT!

So in the end, it is MUCH more healthy a choice to disengage from a place where you are feeling mental stress caused by being bullied by a gang of men who are (as most women deal with) ‘mansplaining’ what the ‘correct’ battle system is. Why put up with that crap?

crpgnut · February 20, 2020

I prefer real based to time turn personally, but I'm very glad blobpurple has decided to just take a break rather than leave us forever. nutcrpg out.

Dez · February 20, 2020

Me too. Glad she is not leaving. I need to be more active since Purple and I share the fondness to rtwp systems and she got tired of defending here videogame taste. I'll take a mental note to wave the rtwp flag more often. Turn based games are not the epitome of roleplaying games. They are just one kind of games.

ilm · February 20, 2020

I completely agree with this. I hear a lot of talk over the years that trolling, flamebait, insulting, etc. is normal. That it is the cesspool of the internet and you just have to 'deal' with it (or ignore it).

I never got that. How difficult is it to say sorry when you are wrong, and be polite. I don't mean you have to overdo it, but just like you would do in real-life.

Svartie · February 21, 2020

txa1265 said:
I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t understand by now how the internet and social media work and their real world impact on our everyday lives. I mean, seriously - this isn’t 1990 anymore.

It has been very well proven across the years that the online interactions can have every bit as real of an impact as ‘in person’ interactions. And as such the mental and physical stress they can cause is equally real. And it has also been shown that the things we care about actually matter to us … and if that is games, then it is games. Please don’t be judging people here for THAT!

So in the end, it is MUCH more healthy a choice to disengage from a place where you are feeling mental stress caused by being bullied by a gang of men who are (as most women deal with) ‘mansplaining’ what the ‘correct’ battle system is. Why put up with that crap?

Getting that frustrating over a playstyle of a commonly loved genre, no no lol. You should watch some heavy metal forums,if that was the case everyone should be out killing each other

. And no, fighting with an 'in person' friend, collegue etc, is way more serious than fighting with a unknown guy in some gaming forum.

Myrthos · February 21, 2020

I agree with txa that words written online can hurt just as much than they can when they are spoken in real life. That might not be the case for you, or perhaps someone hasn’t pushed that specific button yet that makes you get negative emotions when interacting online and act on that.
Just assuming that everyone is like you and because you apparently feel no emotions when interacting online with others, everyone doesn’t, isn’t a very healthy assumption to make.
People behave in different ways when it happens to them, some step away and some become aggressive and use a bunch of words that that they shouldn’t and are moderated for that. Should we have moderated the person that has caused someone to blow a fuse or causing someone to step out?
Sometimes we do, but not always as it isn’t always conflicting with the rules and taking correct preventive measures only works when our magic crystal ball is working.

Being respectful to others is one of the best preventive measures that can be taken.

Goodbye from me

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