The cost of making games ...

You supply a game who had it and failed, however could you name me one FPS game who didn't have it and succeded?
Dark Forces. The game was not good-looking by any standards, not even then. It did have a powerful franchise behind it, of course. Another example would be Rainbow Six. Not pretty, but an addictive game.
As far as I know there is two FPS series on the PC who has a story with decent NPC's that is Half-Life and the wounderful NOLF
Strife struck me as a truly decent FPS with good NPCs and plot twists. The story behind most games (unless you count sports games) is 'save the world from this or that evil', anyway.
But I think you are a rare breed if you still discuss such an old classics as doom with your friends often... what exactly is there to discuss? If the rocket launcher better than the chaingun, can you play through the game without using any other weapon than the shootgun? who is the meanest enemy?
...for example. And how the D3 monsters compare to those of the original Doom... where the plot lines of the novels and the games separate... if the SNES version was any good, and if people enjoyed the N64 version end boss or not... which Doom emulator is the best, and why... which game was better, Doom or Duke3D... if the secret place in Hexen's first level is reachable in SP or MP only... why Redneck Rampage Rides Again failed... about the C&C FMVs... which Street Fighter alpha character was the best (we're not just FPS geeks), and so on. I could also talk about Ken's Labyrinth for hours, but I'm probably the only person in the world who ever played it, with the exception of Ken Silverman ;).
 
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This reminds me of a post I made a while back in the Gothic 3 forum (of this site). I pretty much came to the conclusion that the best companies right now who could make a complete, robust, CRPG are ID or Valve. They are pretty much the only people who have the funds and resources to write their own ticket and take as long as they want to perfect things.

I was so hoping that Gothic 3 would deliver, but it failed to meet its promise mostly because it seriously needed another year of development.

What we need is to beg Oprah to fund a huge, massive CRPG game. State of the art graphics, 1st or 3rd person mode, full spoken dialogue, lots of freedom, no load-zone 3d World ....
 
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no thanks! i don't shop at candy stores or gun stores. i prefer book stores and music stores. so my gaming choices parallel that. the only large american game company i have any faith in is irrational, though obsidian is proving their worth.
 
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(I shop at clothes stores. A lot. And one of my favorite CRPGs was Daggerfall.. a coincidence?)
 
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Dark Forces. The game was not good-looking by any standards, not even then. It did have a powerful franchise behind it, of course.
Good example, this game was great, I agree! However this was a long time ago..... at those days you could slip by without the top notch graphics. Rainbow 6... 98 if I am not mistaken another old one. The new rainbow six's really has top notch graphics... they were even nominated for best graphics of the year.

Strife struck me as a truly decent FPS with good NPCs and plot twists.
Played it and enjoyed it a bit... but it is also a bit like an RPG/FPS hybrid like System shock and Deus Ex etc, it is also another old game.

...for example. And how the D3 monsters compare to those of the original Doom... where the plot lines of the novels and the games separate... if the SNES version was any good, and if people enjoyed the N64 version end boss or not... which Doom emulator is the best, and why... which game was better, Doom or Duke3D... if the secret place in Hexen's first level is reachable in SP or MP only... why Redneck Rampage Rides Again failed...

Okay, on this point I give up :D I bet you could discuss Barbie's big adventure forever too....... I guess we have different requirements for a memorable game!
 
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What we need is to beg Oprah to fund a huge, massive CRPG game. State of the art graphics, 1st or 3rd person mode, full spoken dialogue, lots of freedom, no load-zone 3d World ....

No, no, no! This is the road to cRPG doom! With all due respect, elk, this is exactly the problem I was trying to get at in post #20 in this thread. Every one of the aspects you ask for above, with the exception of the subjective "lots of freedom", is a dead end. IMO, it's pretty much all publishers and developers have been devoting the lion's share of their creative resources towards for much too long rather than real innovation. Sigh...

Not to mention the horror of Oprah as your only choice of avatar. You know if she were putting up the money, her ego would demand it...

;)
 
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I had an idea the other day. It was Will Wright's, but I'm claiming credit for the application.

Widely accepted as fact:

The games industry is locked in a graphics arms race. You can sell big numbers if you've got the best graphics, but each new advance in visual fidelity raises the consumer's expectations. Games need more and higher quality content every year. As this pushes the price of development up, as the price of failure continues to rise, publishers grow more conservative. They won't try unproven concepts and won't endorse decisions which could restrict a game's appeal. The former doesn't bother RPG fans - the RPG achieved perfection in 1997 - but they don't care for the latter at all.

A reasonable but unsubstantiated prediction:

I expect diminishing returns to impose soft ceilings on the price of game development. For a given artistic style, developers will reach a point beyond which more detail and special effects will no longer pay for themselves, as they won't make enough of an impact to sell enough additional copies. (A soft ceiling, because other forces like the skill base of a company would still drive graphical development.) The folks chasing photorealism, and realistic human expression in particular, have a long road ahead of them, but I believe that some of the simple and cartoony styles could finish up in this generation. Playing the new Sam & Max from Telltale, a 2D game in 3D, I found myself thinking that a few more polys on those curved surfaces would make it look as good as I could want it to. In general, I think we have lower expectations, or fewer expectations of games which don't try to mimic reality.

I love you, Will!:

At GDC05, Will Wright revealed his solution to the content problem, that players would create it for him. His team of rockstar programmers made this possible by constructing editors which automate away over 99% of the work in modeling and animating a character. The user snaps together body parts, molds them with simple controls, and picks colors and textures for the final product. Procedural animation brings it to life. The programmers sacrificed the flexibility of a modeling package for extreme ease of use.

Wholly baseless speculation:

I believe that untold thousands of artists would make the same trade, flexibility for convenience, right now. Games which would never compete on their graphics could use modularly modeled and procedurally animated characters as a basis for further customisation. The limitations of such a toolset would suit it to simple, cartoonish styles, but as the technology matured, when developers could buy royalty-free licenses for parts and animation routines as easily as ad companies buy Poser models, the variety of uses could expand until only the reality fetishists could afford to do it the old-fashioned way. And it would have terrific benefits for the productivity of a small team. I've followed the FPS modding scene from the beginning, and for years modeler/animators have been THE limiting resource. When models make themselves, all things become possible. Even real RPGs.

It just seems so obvious to me. I mean, how many games have hunched-over green humanoids with tusks and pointy ears? Which the artists built one polygon at a time? And animated frame-by-frame? Stupid. Waste is stupid.

What do you think? What have I missed?

[Edit: One obvious objection is that I only talked about character generation, since modeler/animators are just nowhere, but there's an equivalent (and similarly hypothetical) procedural genesis tool for any other organic element of a game. The entire natural world was created procedurally, after all.]
 
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I totally agree that this industry needs to start putting a lot of focus on doing great tools - and this is already the case in many game studios. The time when "brute force" could get you through the art creation phase is over, and the companies with great tools will be the companies that survive and makes the greatest profits. You can no longer solve the problem: "our art pipeline SUCKS" by applying the old response: "well, just hire a few more artists/slaves".

But I have a problem with a line in your post:
When models make themselves, all things become possible. Even real RPGs.

Sorry, it's just not that easy! Models and other types of content will *never* just make itself. Even with the greatest modular systems and the smoothest art pipelines it will never become "trivial" to create the amount of content that players already expects in their games! It is *hard* to use procedurally produced content. Right now some game studios are trying to use procedurally generated animation, and it is hard to get right. It can look cool, but I think they end up spending almost as much time tweaking the parameters of the tool as they would have if they had done the animations by hand.

On the code side more and more packages of third party tools also becomes available. We have packages for helping us do graphics, physics, ai, flash-movies, sound, lip-sync etc etc... all designed to make the lives of programmers easier. The problem is just that when you start adding many (or even just a few) of these packages together in the soup that is your game engine, then problems starts to arise when the different third party tools has to work together. Or you loose the ability to customize and therefore cannot do the stuff you want in your game. Again, much time is spent making all this work - and perhaps you end up having to do your own version anyway!

In closing: making a game is not a trivial thing - and it will never be as easy as clicking a few buttons. Those that thinks so has obviously never tried it themselves :) But the process can of course be improved and the industry can indeed learn to be better at using new tools and techniques to optimize the cost of doing a game.

It is unfortunate for us RPG-lovers that CRPGs are the most complex type of game to create of them all. And a logical conclusion to this is that they are also typically very expensive to develop - at least if they has to appear on par with the other genres production wise..
 
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Thank you for replying to that line of my post. Just to clarify for anyone else who's reading, I was talking about a generative system which designers could use to create and animate relatively simple models as a baseline for budget and indie titles, with the possibility of scaling up to more uses as the userbase expands. Obviously that one piece of technology, while of some value at the lower end of the market, would be a small part of game development and would not trivialize the process. I'd never suggest it.

Edit: I don't want to understate the impact that simpler modeling and animation could have on amateur work. Anyone who's ever worked on a TC for a modern engine will know what I mean.
 
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Definitely a reasonable hope for the industry. Don't know if a world-class suite of modeling and animation tools with a library of assets would ever be cheap enough liscense-wise to really fling the doors open for all level of players to get into the act, but I think it's reasonable to expect that there will continue to be improvement to cheap tool sets to the point that in a few years the Jeff Vogels of the world can make an RPG graphically on par with Gothic 2, for instance, while focusing the lion's share of their energy on the gameplay on story.
 
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Well, for Spiderweb, almost anything would improve on its current arrangement, no matter how simple or inflexible. Jeff has to recycle a bunch of art from one project to another because he can't even get 60-pixel-high sprites at a reasonable price. It imposes that high a barrier to entry.
 
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I don't see generic content as a solution all RPG's that has them has been pretty boring... "all dungeons look the same" Oblivion anyone?

The beauty of a game is given by the genius of the artists..... I see this more like a danger to the indsutry as generating graphics and art is probably thousands of times cheaper than making it all. However if it means they could afford to make some new decent games..... maybe it could be acceptable to a degree.
 
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and just sit back and watch the story go by from the comfy armchair provided by the "go-here-and-do-it-exactly-this-way-the-monster-will-be-just-waiting-around-to-die-so-don't-worry-about-it-you-can't-possibly-fail-in-any-way" quest design.

Reminds me of This one.
 
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but each new advance in visual fidelity raises the consumer's expectations.

One theotry of mine suggests that this is exactrly the reason why not-so-good-looking games don't receive good reviews in gaming magazines :

Editors are used to the best hardware one can get - for their work. In my theory, they just become oversaturated, like someone living in luxury his or her whole life.

So, games that aren't meeting their high demand, won't get any good reviews anymore. Especially when they are not good looking.

That's my theory.

I was playing "Siege of Avalong" a few months ago, and despite this game was looking relatively "simple", I was astonished by the high amount of fun I had while playing it !

The worst problem ist, that games are measured against their "visual fidelitity" (as I would pronounce it ;) ) , and NOT against the "fun factor" !


For a given artistic style, developers will reach a point beyond which more detail and special effects will no longer pay for themselves, as they won't make enough of an impact to sell enough additional copies.

I expect this, too.

At one point, a point will be reached when graphics cannot be made "better" anymore, so they'll naturally have to stick rather at story etc. again to make a game sell.
 
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I don't see generic content as a solution all RPG's that has them has been pretty boring... "all dungeons look the same" Oblivion anyone?
Now that's a fair criticism. The usefulness of the product I envision, a Spore-like editor which generates Maya models and anims, would depend on the variety of parts and animation routines available. The fewer an artist had to work with, the less likely he could get an approximation of what he needed from it. But the fewer artists using it, the smaller the market for parts. In its early days, everything created with it would tend to look the same (i.e. boring), and it would be a difficult project to get off the ground.
 
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I don't see generic content as a solution all RPG's that has them has been pretty boring... "all dungeons look the same" Oblivion anyone?

The beauty of a game is given by the genius of the artists..... I see this more like a danger to the indsutry as generating graphics and art is probably thousands of times cheaper than making it all. However if it means they could afford to make some new decent games..... maybe it could be acceptable to a degree.

I think abbaon is more referring to a program similar to speedtree, but then for models and animations. Things like Speedtree, Facegen and Havoc have made life easier for developers because they don't have to reinvent the wheel, they can use an exsisting application to create certain content, allowing them to focus on other areas.

If there was a creature/people generator complete with animations, then that would cut out a lot of work for a developer, all they have to do is either order the creatures made to their art style, or use the generator to create models suitable for their game, depending how the application works.

Yes, you would have more generic models, but then again, most people look similar anyway (2 arms, to legs, 1 nose, same proportions) and most fantasy creatures do as well (goblins being small and greeinsh for example).
This would allow a developer to concentrate on more important things, like soryline and dialog.

I honestly do not think it would be a bad idea, however, these sort of programs (speedtree, Havoc, and so on) are quite often very expensive and only affordable for big companies.

There are products like that out there, like creature creator:
http://www.fxrealm.com/products/creaturecreator/maxdesc.htm

However, most of these don't do animations, since animations would most likely also depend on which engine you use...
 
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However, most of these don't do animations, since animations would most likely also depend on which engine you use...
Yeah. Canned animations don't go too far these days. To help anyone working on a halfway decent engine, you'd need to but really couldn't support engine features like segmented models or IK. Ragdolling, too, now that I think of it, would require you to rig the thing by hand. Nuts.
 
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Very illuminating discussion. I'll never be able to rant about money-grubbing game development again. ;)
Thank you all for educating me on the extremely complex tools that are out there, and the levels of expertise needed to produce a game. I really honestly had no idea--my picture of game development is a like a garage band compared to reality!:)
 
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