The Science Thread

Harsh? Just my honest opinion - as always.

As I said, sure - it's food for thought. But it's not sufficient to draw this kind of conclusion. As in, you can't speak to actual generosity in any meaningful way based on a game.

I mean, have you seen how children behave when they play games involving wealth or possession? Like, say, Diablo? Talk about a sudden outburst of obscene greed.

There's just no way - and whether that's a "natural limitation" of a game or not is irrelevant.

My only concern is that people take shit research like this and draw any kind of real and final conclusion from it.

It's bad enough that we have morons who actually believe that religious beliefs or a religious upbringing can somehow be correlated with actual altruistic tendencies.
 
Behold! The P&R Forum!

:p
Yes, For a moment I was in doubt: as a new thread in P&R, or in this thread?
No matter what: all statistics are to be interpretated, science can always lead to strong debate.
So the science thread it was...
 
It's not a game as we know it. It more like an experiment , The rules are very simple. From wikipedia "In the dictator game, the first player, 'the dictator', determines how to split an endowment (such as a cash prize) between himself and the second player. The second player, 'the recipient', simply receives the remainder of the endowment left by the dictator". The question is then: how much do people keep themselves, and how much do they share.

Games like this (most of them more complex) are part of game theory, "the study of mathematical models of conflict and cooperation between intelligent rational decision-makers.". Again nothing like the games we play. They are of practical value in psychology, economics and political sciences. Even in biology.

BTW: From Wikipedia: "precisely what to conclude from the evidence [the dictator game, my addition] is controversial".

pibbur who thinks this is interesting.

PS. The american mathematician and winner of the 2015 Abel prize John Nash, has made significant contributions to game theory. (He also suffered from schizophrenia, and is portrayed in the film "A beautiful mind"). Sadly he died in a car crash just a few days after receiving the Abel DS.

That is largely my point.

Religion is also separate from "religious upbringing" because the former is not necessarily subject to the interpretation of your parents.

My core point is that if children are selfish - it makes more sense to look at the overall environment and what the parents themselves are like.

If you want to look at why these children don't feel like sharing in a fantasy environment - then perhaps you need to look at the cause = their real environment and their parents, not whatever those parents use as inspiration or a guide - because we all know that religion can be used and interpreted every which way.

Also, I when I look at the countries they've elected to include, I wonder how they arrived at them.

I'm sure you're aware that the "religious" traditions differ quite significantly from country to country.
 
Harsh? Just my honest opinion - as always.

As I said, sure - it's food for thought. But it's not sufficient to draw this kind of conclusion. As in, you can't speak to actual generosity in any meaningful way based on a game.

I mean, have you seen how children behave when they play games involving wealth or possession? Like, say, Diablo? Talk about a sudden outburst of obscene greed.

There's just no way - and whether that's a "natural limitation" of a game or not is irrelevant.

My only concern is that people take shit research like this and draw any kind of real and final conclusion from it.

It's bad enough that we have morons who actually believe that religious beliefs or a religious upbringing can somehow be correlated with actual altruistic tendencies.
Shit research because it was an experiment in a laboratory, instead of actual behaviour in real life?
Then there's a lot of shit research...

You are touching an interesting but different topic though:
should research be restricted because someone might draw conclusions from its findings others regard as apalling?
 
Shit research because it was an experiment in a laboratory, instead of actual behaviour in real life?
Then there's a lot of shit research…

You are touching an interesting but different topic though:
should research be restricted because someone might draw conclusions from its findings others regard as apalling?

No, because it's completely insufficient.

I have no problem with research - I have a problem with stupid conclusions made public from a position of authority.

Should we restrict stupidity? No, I'm not in favor of mass genocide.
 
Don't Eye. Just don't...
 
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Should we act based on imperfect information? Absolutely. Everyone has to everyday.

My experience with children is that if they are selfish in their gameplaying then they are selfish in real life interactions. That's not 100% true, but few things are.

Remember this is not sophisticated roleplaying being done by adults.

Also, this is evidence for correlation not for causation. Making the jump to causation is a common error. Maybe the parents are selfish and use religion as a way to compensate for their "sinful" behavior.
 
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Happy birthday Lucy. 41 years (+3.2 million).

I had seen her ! I had seen her ! :)

A few years ago, there was this HUGE exhibition on our ancestors !
It took place in Bonn, former German capital, and ALL major people [skeletons] were there ! Lucy, the Taun child, the one from the Neandertal - you name them, they had them !

That was a really great thing. :)

And it makes one become so humble, to see how the people before us were ...
 
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I just wonder what DA / Dart might have to say about me seeing Lucy.

Harsh? Just my honest opinion - as always.

I think he might say that it is harsh to see her.

@DA / Dart :
Personally, I'm just bitter now by the fact that *all* discussions with you go the same way - you are behaving like a Tower Defense game, and tying to get all "attacks" off you ... and then trying to defend yourself by downplaying/batmouthing/derogating every attempt to try to prove your logic wrong - meanwhile TOTALLY ignoring ANY other forum members writing things that DO NOT belong to your current discussion ...

As soon as I was writing here that I had seen the remains of Lucy (although Wikipedia says that it can't be), you stopped writing here. As if your discussion was the only interesting thing.

I'm a bit fed up with this "discussion culture", I must say.
 
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It is tiresome, Alrik, but one can always relax and ignore it, safe in the knowledge that virtually everyone else here knows what we're dealing with, and that there's no need to respond.
 
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It is tiresome, Alrik, but one can always relax and ignore it, safe in the knowledge that virtually everyone else here knows what we're dealing with, and that there's no need to respond.

I wish it were so clear. It reminds me of the Groucho Mark bit:
I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.

Your proposition may be good,
But let's have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v3etuIw-aM

He claims to support research, yet has a fairly constant refrain that all research is wrong, any attempt to know anything is an absolute failure, and so on. Of course, that is what I would generally just dismiss as the 'liberal arts view of science', the philosopher's take on things or whatever.

But at the same time as much as he and I butt heads and disagree, there is also much we do agree upon fundamentally, but too often it gets all twisted up.


Even regarding the latest topic, I don't necessarily disagree with what he is saying - although the 'shit research' comment surprised me coming from him. One of the big problems I always have is how research abstracts are 'sold' and marketed based on the most scintillating potential twist on the research outcome.

For this one, the research isn't on a huge scale, and there are inherent limitations on how to assign variables that I was concerned about reading the study (we have access through my work library), but overall based on what they were trying to do there was enough of a 'signal' to make some statistically significant findings in their data.

As he notes, I am not sure I would twist it so forcefully ... but I am used to having to dig deeper into studies for that very reason. For me I read it more like "perhaps the age-old assumption by religious leaders of greater levels of giving and altruism should be investigated further" ... or something like that.

As for D'Art's position that the 'surrogate' test of a game not properly representing real world behavior ... that is ALWAYS the struggle with surrogate metrics. I don't know enough about that particular topic - and psychological studies in general - to really speak in any detail. But I do know that surrogate metrics are wonderful things when all is well, and cause turmoil when they don't :)
 
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Nah. Philosophy and science are perfectly compatible in an interesting conversation. Obdurate perversity... less so.
 
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One of the big problems I always have is how research abstracts are 'sold' and marketed based on the most scintillating potential twist on the research outcome.

Yes, this has stirred up the people here as well.

With companies which are developing medical drugs giving so much money into research, one can fear that some sort of research might be "bought".

A scientific study already pointed out to *negative* outcomes of research studies being published far less - if at all.

Plus, also this "peer review" thing doesn't seem to work, because it basically encapsulates all people froim the same science class, so to say, which means that there is an almost closed system in the end. True creativity isn't muich there anymore, because it would go astray too far from the "motorhighway of scientific belief" so to say. But only in / on the lesser known roads there is something truly new to be found …

In the end, this is capitalism as well : Those who have the money are able to shape our Reality - through financing studies with a desired outcome - and suppressing those which don't have the desired outcome.
 
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With companies which are developing medical drugs giving so much money into research, one can fear that some sort of research might be "bought".

Anyone familiar with the process and the standards knows that this is largely untrue ... YES there are examples of drugs, etc that make it through with problems, and other issues, but in general the data and documentation packages required make it hard to just 'buy' your way to marker ... plus the billions of dollars pair out in lawsuits when something goes wrong.

At the same time, as soon as there is an indication that something *might* work, there is a huge push to get it to people, which is the exact opposite issue ... it is a hard and constant balancing act.

A scientific study already pointed out to *negative* outcomes of research studies being published far less - if at all.

You are misinterpreting that - what is published less (or not at all) is *insignificant* findings. Things that have a strong significance in one direction or the other are most likely to be published.

Plus, also this "peer review" thing doesn't seem to work, because it basically encapsulates all people froim the same science class,

Actually that really isn't true at all. What *is* true is that while peer review can help make research and analysis more robust, it isn't a panacea or a magic solution.

In the end, this is capitalism as well : Those who have the money are able to shape our Reality - through financing studies with a desired outcome - and suppressing those which don't have the desired outcome.

This *can* be true ... but really only happens in a small part of scientific research, where politics get involved. For the most part things get funding the way anything happens - a combination of merit, popularity, politics, and everything else that happens when people are involved.

Overall I have been increasingly dismayed by the anti-science and anti-intellectualism put forth by the mainstream conservatives of the US in the last couple of decades. Because what you state reflects a very small portion of reality, yet in order to discredit things like climate change, political forces have decided a 'scorched earth' approach where ALL science is declared bankrupt is the best approach ... even as they decry slipping competitiveness in many areas.
 
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Another article which might be suitable for the P&R forum, this time an article in the New Scientist which may revive the nature-nurture debate.
DAILY NEWS 30 November 2015

Scans prove there’s no such thing as a ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain

You may have read that having a male brain will earn you more money. Or maybe that female brains are better at multitasking. But there is no such thing as a female or male brain, according to the first search for sex differences across the entire human brain. It reveals that most people have a mix of male and female brain features. And it also supports the idea that gender is non-binary, and that gender classifications in many situations are meaningless.

“This evidence that human brains cannot be categorised into two distinct classes is new, convincing, and somehow radical,” says Anelis Kaiser at the University of Bern, Switzerland.

The idea that people have either a “female” or “male” brain is an old one, says Daphna Joel at Tel Aviv University in Israel. “The theory goes that once a fetus develops testicles, they secrete testosterone which masculinises the brain,” she says. “If that were true, there would be two types of brain.”

To test the theory, Joel and her colleagues looked for differences in brain scans taken from 1400 people aged between 13 and 85. The team looked for variations in the size of brain regions as well as the connections between them. In total, the group identified 29 brain regions that generally seem to be different sizes in self-identified males and females. These include the hippocampus, which is involved in memory, and the inferior frontal gyrus, which is thought to play a role in risk aversion.

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

Spatial awareness
Although the team only looked at brain structure, and not function, their findings suggest that we all lie along a continuum of what are traditionally viewed as male and female characteristics. “The study is very helpful in providing biological support for something that we’ve known for some time – that gender isn’t binary,” says Meg John Barker, a psychologist at the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK.

The findings will still come as a surprise to many, including scientists, says Bruce McEwen at the Rockefeller University in New York. “We are beginning to realise the complexity of what we have traditionally understood to be ‘male’ and ‘female’, and this study is the first step in that direction,” he says. “I think it will change peoples’ minds.”

Markus Hausmann at Durham University, UK, isn’t surprised by the findings, however. He has been studying sex differences in cognition, such as whether men, as commonly believed, really do have better spatial awareness than women.

“Across all kinds of spatial skills, we find very, very few that are sensitive to sex,” says Hausmann. “We have also identified spatial problems where women outperform men – the black-and-white idea of a male or female brain is clearly too simple.”

Cultural expectations
Despite persisting stereotypes, girls are no worse than boys at science and maths subjects, either.

“People get wedded to the idea that being male or female is highly predictive of having different aptitudes or career choices,” says Margaret McCarthy, who studies brain sex differences at the University of Maryland in Baltimore. “This study fights against the idea that these outcomes are based on biological differences, as opposed to cultural expectations.” Other body systems are also often wrongly considered to be either male or female, says Joel.

Alexandra Kautzky-Willer, head of the Gender Medicine Unit at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria, agrees that things aren’t so simple. “There are differences between men and women when you look in large groups, and these are important for diagnosis and treatment,” she says. “But there are always more differences within genders. We always need to look at culture, environment, education and a person’s role in society,” she says.

If a neuroscientist was given someone’s brain without their body or any additional information, they would still probably be able to guess if it had belonged to a man or a woman. Men’s brains are larger, for example, and are likely to have a larger number of “male” features overall. But the new findings suggest that it is impossible to predict what mix of brain features a person is likely to have based on their sex alone.

Genderless future
Joel envisions a future in which individuals are not so routinely classified based on gender alone. “We separate girls and boys, men and women all the time,” she says. “It’s wrong, not just politically, but scientifically – everyone is different.”

But other scientists contacted by New Scientist don’t think that will ever be possible – as a sexually reproductive species, identifying a person’s biological sex will always be of paramount importance to us, they say.

Even so, Joel’s findings can be used to help many people understand the non-binary nature of gender, says Barker. After all, some people don’t identify as either male or female, and others feel their gender identity shift over time. “It’s a shame that people’s experience alone isn’t enough for us to recognise as a society that non-binary gender is legitimate.”

“We need to start thinking a lot more carefully about how much weight we give to gender as a defining feature of human beings, and stop asking for it in situations where it simply isn’t relevant,” says Barker.

Ref: PNAS, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1509654112

(Image: Petr Strnad/Millennium Images, UK)

Read more: “A welcome blow to the myth of distinct male and female brains”

PS.
Link to mentioned Ref: PNAS, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1509654112: "Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic"
 
Interesting.

Pibbur who has seen a lot of CT and MRI brain scans, mostly looking for things that may go wrong inside the head.
 
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