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February 4th, 2019, 17:28
I will never forget the episode where Janeway and Paris super-evolved and had lizard babies together, then afterwards carry on as if nothing happened. WTF?! Also Kes has the sexiest voice ever. We are currently on S3E7 (Sacred Ground) so a long way to go yet.
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February 4th, 2019, 18:34
Voyager has one of the episodes I've liked the most in all Star Trek, which is Tuvix, mostly because in 99% of Star Trek episodes, the captain has to make some tough decision, but he/she makes the same one you've make, but in this episode I was in disagreement with the decision, and I liked that.
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February 4th, 2019, 19:07
Originally Posted by wolfing View Post
Voyager has one of the episodes I've liked the most in all Star Trek, which is Tuvix, mostly because in 99% of Star Trek episodes, the captain has to make some tough decision, but he/she makes the same one you've make, but in this episode I was in disagreement with the decision, and I liked that.
I know a teacher that used to show that episode for discussion in Philosophy class. It's a great dilemma, but I didn't think the episode was that great, overall.
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February 4th, 2019, 21:13
Personally, I never saw the dilemma. Two people were merged into one person - by accident, no less. So, it's pretty simple. Either you save one and kill two - or you save two and kill one.

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February 4th, 2019, 21:16
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Personally, I never saw the dilemma. Two people were merged into one person - by accident, no less. So, it's pretty simple. Either you save one and kill two - or you save two and kill one.
I'm going to do the TV thread a favour, and not get the two of us into the philosophical implications of it!
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February 4th, 2019, 21:22
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I never liked Darmok that much, because I never understood how a language based on metaphor could have possibly developed those metaphors in the first place, because they were based on a standard language.

I mean, how did the sentence of the metaphor "Shaka, when the walls fell" come about without a standard language to create that sentence?

And metaphors in English, no less.

Oh there were some issues, no doubt but the idea of a communication block is rarely explored in sci fi . . . everybody speaks English. There was one Original series Star Trek where a race came from another "galaxy" and they not only spoke English but looked human too (albeit in disguise)

I mean we haven't really understood the language of the other species on this planet. Since they are "inferior" we leave it to behavior or instinct not language. So yeah, there were problems with Darmok, but I really appreciated the attempt at addressing the problem our real future astronauts are going to have when they travel amongst the stars.
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February 4th, 2019, 21:27
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I'm going to do the TV thread a favour, and not get the two of us into the philosophical implications of it!
Fine by me

Still, there's no choice there that doesn't involve a terrible sacrifice. I just think it's pretty easy to do the math on this one, and live with the lesser of two evils.

Meaning, if I were in Janeway's position - I'd make that same choice without even thinking about it - because thinking wouldn't help in the slightest. I wouldn't feel good about it, sure, but there really was no alternative.

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February 4th, 2019, 21:31
Originally Posted by Dajjer View Post
And metaphors in English, no less.

Oh there were some issues, no doubt but the idea of a communication block is rarely explored in sci fi . . . everybody speaks English. There was one Original series Star Trek where a race came from another "galaxy" and they not only spoke English but looked human too (albeit in disguise)

I mean we haven't really understood the language of the other species on this planet. Since they are "inferior" we leave it to behavior or instinct not language. So yeah, there were problems with Darmok, but I really appreciated the attempt at addressing the problem our real future astronauts are going to have when they travel amongst the stars.
I agree, the concept was neat - but it was just too flawed for my tastes.

I also never understood the "universal translator" conceit. I mean, even if they did have a translator that was fast and efficient enough to translate alien language perfectly on the fly - it doesn't explain how it manages to change the lip movement to be in perfect sync with the English translation

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February 4th, 2019, 21:38
Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
I remember how excited I was when I first heard about Voyager, and the premise of a ship being so far from home, having to slowly make its way back. The next bit of news that I heard was that the lead actress had quit, and that didn't bode too well for a new show. .
That lead actress was Genevieve Bujold. You can watch the scene comparisons and see the Kate Mulgrew was far superior. Sadly, I really liked Bujold as an actress and was so disappointed she left the show, I held on to some animus against Mulgrew for just about the entire run of the series.

Mulgrew vs Bujold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbl3cGQ5vxI
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February 4th, 2019, 21:40
Aye, that's her name! I recall her from some movie years ago that I quite enjoyed, and I'd looked forward to seeing her in a Star Trek show. Perhaps Mulgrew was better, I've nothing against her personally as an actress, but I do have a fondness for Bujold.
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February 4th, 2019, 21:46
I think they're both good actresses. I'd say Mulgrew is of the more old-school, larger-than-life, stagey actors (which are some of my favourites), whereas Bujold would probably be a better fit for the more naturalistic styles of today.
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February 4th, 2019, 21:48
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I agree, the concept was neat - but it was just too flawed for my tastes.

I also never understood the "universal translator" conceit. I mean, even if they did have a translator that was fast and efficient enough to translate alien language perfectly on the fly - it doesn't explain how it manages to change the lip movement to be in perfect sync with the English translation
lol
big lol

Actually, a recent Doctor Who episode (past 3 years or so) kinda addressed your concerns. The side kick asked how can I understand this foreign language and how come it feels like I'm still speaking English when I'm responding? I was so blown away by that great question, I had a brain freeze and pondered that question instead of listening to the answer…..NOTE: Doctor Who fan for 40 years.

I was like… Hey yeah why is that? Shame on my for not paying attention. My brain is mush. Hmmm, I'm hungry for snacks.
Last edited by Dajjer; February 4th, 2019 at 21:50. Reason: ummm…typo???
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February 4th, 2019, 21:49
It took me 4-5 seasons getting over Mulgrew's nasal Picard imitation

However, she's finally found her own unique spin on the role of Captain - and I really like how mellow and pleasantly jaded she's become towards the end of the show.

But it took a long time for her to come into her own, in my opinion.

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February 4th, 2019, 21:51
Originally Posted by Dajjer View Post
lol
big lol

Actually, a recent Doctor Who episode (past 3 years or so) kinda addressed your concerns. The side kick asked how can I understand this foreign language and how come it feels like I'm still speaking English when I'm responding? I was so blown away by that great question, I had a brain freeze and pondered that question instead of listening to the answer…..NOTE: Doctor Who fan for 40 years.

I was like… Hey yeah why is that? Shame on my for not paying attention. My brain is mush. Hmmm, I'm hungry for snacks.
For me, it would have worked better in Trek if they'd just made a joke about it like that and ignored it.

The Universal Translator was just asking for trouble.

It's like that Klingon change that happened between TOS and the first movie. They just joked "don't ask" - and that was that.

Works for me, anyway

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February 4th, 2019, 22:07
The 5th episode of True Detective season 3 was even better. I'm really digging it by now, I must say.

Also, while I absolutely adore Mahershala Ali as an actor, I'm finding myself liking Stephen Dorff's performance even more. It's quite subtle - and has been a very slow burn so far. But I had something of a man-crush on him in this episode.

I started out thinking he was the typical white douche companion to the heroic black guy - but they've gone and turned that on its head in unexpected ways.

He's a thoroughly likable guy - and yet he's plenty flawed and not saccharine at all.

Anyway, I'm really hoping the last three episodes don't mess this up.

Oh, and am I the only one who thinks this show has the best old-guy make-up of all time?

Mahershala is also giving the most convincing performance of an old version of himself that I think I've ever seen on screen.

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February 4th, 2019, 22:36
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Oh, and am I the only one who thinks this show has the best old-guy make-up of all time?

Mahershala is also giving the most convincing performance of an old version of himself that I think I've ever seen on screen.
It's so good that it almost annoys me, because to me the focus mainly seems to be on that thing. "This will surely give us the X, Y, Z and Ö awards! Let's put in all the effort!!"
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February 4th, 2019, 23:21
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Fine by me

Still, there's no choice there that doesn't involve a terrible sacrifice. I just think it's pretty easy to do the math on this one, and live with the lesser of two evils.

Meaning, if I were in Janeway's position - I'd make that same choice without even thinking about it - because thinking wouldn't help in the slightest. I wouldn't feel good about it, sure, but there really was no alternative.
I disagree because to me that's like 2 people died, and there's a new person in the ship. Would you kill, say, Ensign Kim if that would bring back two other people? Would you let people kill your son if that would bring back two people you don't know? The math is sound, 2 vs. 1, so why wouldn't you accept?

Tuvix was a different person, and Tuvok and Neelix basically died in a transporter accident, that's how I see it and that's why I disagree with the Captain's decision.
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February 4th, 2019, 23:32
When talking about language I always have to think about Mieville's Embassy town which I have never read.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassytown
He seems to always include the more strange stuff in his books (like City and the city).

For TV, either language should be the main focus or everybody should speak English. For scifi that is, Russians should speak Russian (with subtitles)


Was able to do 2 episodes of Daredevil but it is damn hard to keep my mind in it. Often seems not focussed enough for my taste. Towards the end of the season it gets better (only 2 episodes left)

Started watching nightflyers. Scifi, horror, mystery, desolate space ship… What's not to like. It's probably just ok but I like it as it's my kind of genre.
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February 4th, 2019, 23:34
Originally Posted by wolfing View Post
I disagree because to me that's like 2 people died, and there's a new person in the ship. Would you kill, say, Ensign Kim if that would bring back two other people? Would you let people kill your son if that would bring back two people you don't know? The math is sound, so why wouldn't you accept?
What I would do and what's the only correct choice can easily be two different things.

I hope we all understand that human beings aren't rational, and that we've all made thousands of "incorrect" choices in our lives.

Obviously, my emotional connection to a son would make it extremely hard to make the correct choice - but that doesn't mean the choice is wrong.

I'm talking about making the right choice under the given circumstances. Janeway is responsible for the people under her command - and she's the only one in the position to make that choice.

A leader should be able to set aside her personal feelings for the greater good, or so I would argue.

Changing the circumstances into killing random people to save others doesn't reflect the supposed dilemma in this case.

I would have to look at the circumstances - and there's no guarentee I could come up with the right answer in that case.

Tuvix was a different person, and Tuvok and Neelix basically died in a transporter accident, that's how I see it and that's why I disagree with the Captain's decision.
Which is fine? I mean if that's how you interpret the circumstances - then that's just how we differ.

But, if your son and daughter were merged into a stranger in a transporter accident - you wouldn't want to reverse that effect?

I have to say I call bullshit on that.

In my view, if death isn't permanent - then it's not death. So, I don't think of the transporter accident as something that's final - because they had the technology to reverse it.

Allowing malfunctioning technology to dictate the deaths of two people in favor of a new person sounds literally insane - in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't want to be subject to such ill leadership.

As I said, with all things being equal - two lives are better than one. In this particular case, all things WERE equal, because Tuvix was a combination of the two others.

Meaning, we don't have to consider if one of them was significantly younger and, as such, would potentially get more out of life - or any other similarly complicated factor.

That's what makes the decision so easy in my view - because the circumstances were very straightforward.

I don't think they could have made such a decision any easier if they tried. Again, I would have to say any other decision would be insane or incredibly cruel - in my view.

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February 5th, 2019, 00:38
Originally Posted by wolfing View Post
Tuvix was a different person, and Tuvok and Neelix basically died in a transporter accident, that's how I see it and that's why I disagree with the Captain's decision.
Well, for me it was not so much Tuvok and Neelix died because they didn't but they would have to kill this new life to bring back the old ones. In a sense it was a sacrifice for the greater good. What did not go well with me was how callus they were about killing off Tuvix.

Actually, TNG had a similar type dilemma where the one of their fictional holo characters became sentient. They didn't kill it off but created a new environment for the new life form to live in.

If I had been writing for the show, I would have introduced a room/hallway/holodeck program that had pictures of all the crew that had fallen on the enterprise. The next to the last shot would have been a picture of Tuvix. The last shot would have been Janeway walking away with a sense of grief.
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