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Default Elder Scrolls VI - No New Graphics Engine

November 14th, 2018, 18:49
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post

Weird demand this new stuff as people on this site are addicted to UgoIgo
But, you’re on this site. Does that mean you’re addicted to UgoIgo? It seems you’re addicted to typing it.

As for a new engine it’s a bit disappointing as I hoped that’s why it was taking so long to release.

Really though as long as they keep it highly moddable, I’ll be happy. Unless of course they want to start charging me for mods.
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November 14th, 2018, 19:04
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
But it does.
Sure.
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November 14th, 2018, 19:06
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
But, you’re on this site. Does that mean you’re addicted to UgoIgo? It seems you’re addicted to typing it.
Like saying there is an addiction to typing RPG on this site.
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November 14th, 2018, 20:08
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Gamers dismiss that story of 60 FPS as it does not affect gameplay.
Of course it affects gameplay. All scripting in a gamebryo game expects to run at 60fps; anything less and you get adverse effects. Something as simple as sprinting away from a griefer becomes more difficult/slower if you're sub 60fps.
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November 14th, 2018, 21:25
I have no doubt the term "engine" is often used without a clear understanding of what it is. Game engines are constantly changing, after all, so using that as a basis for an argument on every game title a company develops within its lifespan isn't entirely applicable, though it does apply.

However, you could just as easily replace "engine" with 'codebase" and everyone's point would still stand.

At the same time, when you witness recurring issues that have plagued Bethesda games for years (hiccups/hitching being persistent in every iteration of their games that used Gamebryo, for example), there's obviously a very clear connection that can be drawn there.
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November 15th, 2018, 13:47
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Of course it affects gameplay. All scripting in a gamebryo game expects to run at 60fps; anything less and you get adverse effects. Something as simple as sprinting away from a griefer becomes more difficult/slower if you're sub 60fps.
And?

Article claims issues happen beyond 60 FPS.

This kind of product's gameplay does not benefit from more than 60 FPS. Smooth, steady 60 FPS are enough.

It adds nothing.
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November 15th, 2018, 14:16
This kind of product does benefit a player - can be used as laxative.
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November 16th, 2018, 08:58
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
And?

Article claims issues happen beyond 60 FPS.
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
All scripting in a gamebryo game expects to run at 60fps
Ask a streamer to add 2 + 2 if you still don't comprehend. A developer's choice, because an engine is rooted in archaic, poorly written code, that the "fix" to this is limiting frames altogether - it's utter foolishness.

The problem is that gamebryo is full of this ill-optimized coding (for modern computers) and its myriad of band-aids. Apologists (and modders) have been content with this for the most part; judging by the large majority of reviews, their patience is at an end.
Last edited by Drithius; November 16th, 2018 at 09:10.
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November 16th, 2018, 10:54
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Ask a streamer to add 2 + 2 if you still don't comprehend. A developer's choice, because an engine is rooted in archaic, poorly written code, that the "fix" to this is limiting frames altogether - it's utter foolishness.

The problem is that gamebryo is full of this ill-optimized coding (for modern computers) and its myriad of band-aids.
Don't be silly. We've already covered this. The engine uses Havok physics (same as Dark Souls 3, Wolfenstein, and Civ 6), and the renderer was completely redesigned (more than once) by Bethesda as a 64-bit DX11 implementation.
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November 16th, 2018, 13:52
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Ask a streamer to add 2 + 2 if you still don't comprehend. A developer's choice, because an engine is rooted in archaic, poorly written code, that the "fix" to this is limiting frames altogether - it's utter foolishness.
And? This could be fixed without pushing for more than 60 FPS.

Steady, smooth 60FPS+ adds nothing to this kind of games.
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November 16th, 2018, 14:01
Your opinion. Sony's opinion too because of outdated hardware incapability. Blind people's too, because they can't see anything anyway.

Not mine.
What was that about 2+2?
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November 16th, 2018, 14:10
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Your opinion.
Of course, who else. Also the opinion that the earth is round. And?

Gamers are interested in gameplay and discard features that do not work in favour of an improvement in gameplay. They buy games, not vid products burdened with unnnecessary features provided to hide that devs did not bother developping a game.

Higher than 60 FPS serves nothing in this kind of products.
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November 16th, 2018, 14:14
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
the opinion that the earth is round.
There is a huge difference between fact and opinion.

I'm still waiting for 2+2 explanation.
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November 16th, 2018, 14:17
No.

Opinions may be factual. The earth is round is an opinion. Fact based opinion but still an opinion.
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November 16th, 2018, 14:32
LOL
Ever read The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy? You should.
A quote from it, perfectly fit for 2+2 question here and your answers on it and the most probable epilogue:
“The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with the nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.”
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November 16th, 2018, 14:34
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
Don't be silly. We've already covered this. The engine uses Havok physics (same as Dark Souls 3, Wolfenstein, and Civ 6), and the renderer was completely redesigned (more than once) by Bethesda as a 64-bit DX11 implementation.
… and the sad truth is that Beth still uses the old Gamebryo foundation under its Creation engine.

Gamebryo was a good engine 100 years ago (one of the first "component-based" engines), but its main issue still remains: it cannot properly synchronize its game systems (render, physics, network, game logic, etc)
BTW, this is the problem with basically any game engines that are not Id Tech.

If you are interested in the technical background, here is a quick and dirty overview:
Syncing game systems together is much much much more harder technically, than rendering trillions of polygons at 600 fps.

With the renderer, you can do shortcuts, and gain performance.
With the synchronization, you must do parallel, asynchronous and thread-safe programming, which is a very complex thing to do. There are no shortcuts. Either you can do it right (=you are John Carmack), or not.

So, the easiest thing to do is to hardcode the engine for a fixed frame rate, and make the synchronization frequency locked as well. No threads, no async subsystems, nothing. Paycheck.

On the other hand, Id Tech's game systems are running totally async in parallel.
… and that's the reason why Id Tech-driven games are super smooth and hyper cool to play, despite lacking certain graphical bells and whistles.
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November 16th, 2018, 18:28
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
The earth is round is an opinion.
!!!

The tales were true; flat earthers DO exist!!
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November 16th, 2018, 19:23
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
I'm still waiting for 2+2 explanation.
2 + 2 = 4. There, I said it!
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November 16th, 2018, 21:43
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
… and the sad truth is that Beth still uses the old Gamebryo foundation under its Creation engine.
Which again, isn't some shocking reveal. We already know this. The only thing "Gamebryo" left is game, map and player object handling (pretty much anything that would be left if you stripped everything off the engine and made Skyrim a text-only RPG), and cell based loading. For single player RPGs like Starfield and ES6, it doesn't really matter, unless they were doing a game with a very complicated height map or a massive amount of NPCs with individual AI in one area (which those games don't call for).
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November 16th, 2018, 22:02
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
…it doesn't really matter, unless they were doing a game with […] a massive amount of NPCs with individual AI in one area (which those games don't call for).
Interesting sidestory: at one time, I poked and prodded Fallout New Vegas quite a bit under the hood and, while using a mod (MMUE+), I was perplexed as to why Red Rock Canyon was an FPS nightmare; my frames would drop by 10 whenever I got near. Turns out that having a single extra NPC (and their AI) enabled - previously disabled in the base game - was the culprit. This was on current hardware with what should have been overkill specs.

The problem with Gamebryo is that it is incredibly temperamental, prone to bugging out, and highly single-threaded, lacking the code infrastructure for modern multicore computers. Bethesda can put all the bandaids on it that they want (and they surely have), but it's simply putting lipstick on a pig these days.

I look forward to Cyperpunk being released alongside an oh-so-very antiquated TESVI.
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