JoWooD - Game Over

This publisher had absolutely nothing to do with Gothic 1, afaik it was Xicat Interactive, Inc.

Xicat? Unimportant.

SAGO said:

what did they actually do to deserve such fiery vengeance from the rpgcummunity?

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Many small things that added up.
For example that small bout about BOUT - the BOok Of Unwritten Tales.

JoWood had bought the publishing rights not long ago - and repacked and sold the product.

The result was a press release by the developers, accusing JoWood of distributing a "non-authorised" and bugged version ... They didn't even patch the whole game, although a ptch was even available, then ...

One of the things in this discussion was a comment by a player, saying that JoWood might have used a crack for the game in order to be able to distruibute it ... Because that player found out that the .EXE file of the game distributed b JoWood had exactly the same size as a cracked version floating around in the internet ...

These things. JoWood just wasn't able to do things like they should to.
They too often left the impression to German gamers that they just weren't working truthfully anymore, so to say.

They even managed to bring out the "updated" Realms Of Arcania pack in a way that showed fans that it cold have been done much, much better ...

I just remember the good ones except for Arcania. Up until Arcania every purchase I made with one of their games was money well spent. (even Gothic 3 because they eventually made good with a promise to fix what PB broke.)

Etherlords. Now that was a great game. Totally new card game to me, but not so different from Magic that I couldn't figure it out.

A lot of little other ones as well.

Truly Arcania was the only disappointment. I forgave them for G3 since that was both JW and PB's fault. Not to mention they made up for it tenfold when the commissioned a community patch.

Ahhhh poor Arx Fatalis….Maybe they should have taken a step back and made Arx 2. To regain some of their lost reputation instead of going for the gold with that Arcania and Arcanias expansion.

skavenhorde said:

(even Gothic 3 because they eventually made good with a promise to fix what PB broke.)

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I think you're giving JoWood too much credit there. That would have never happened if it wasn't for the fan community.

I seem to recall Jowood helping out that community.

More like jumping in after it was already started.

Imo, they saw an opportunity to get some credit for fixes that they never had any intention of doing on their own.

Gorath said:

Xicat? Unimportant.

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Three or four posts back someone gave this publisher credit for publishing Gothic 1, I was correcting them.

skavenhorde said:

(even Gothic 3 because they eventually made good with a promise to fix what PB broke.)

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Where you get this info or maybe this is a translation error…? Your saying PB broke their own game, was this during or after they stopped working on the game becasue they were not getting paid for the patch work?

skavenhorde said:

G3 since that was both JW and PB's fault.

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How is Gothic 3 PB's fault? They slaved over making that game like all their games. They have a small team of about 20 people working 12 to 16 hours a day. Which I bet is much more than most people, maybe even including yourself work. There is not a single shred of evidence PB was fucking off at ANY time during G3 development.

This publisher desperately wanted a AAA title, which they could have easily had with G3, but instead they tried to destroy PB with backhanded tactics. It just goes to show how utter stupid they were, thinking PB couldn't make it on their own. Assholes.

PB had to basically startover in mid development and build their own engine becasue "this publisher" ran out of money. Then used the fact that PB was forced into a delayed game to secure rights to G4 and two sequels(iirc). Basically they caused the delay and then used it to manipulate/trick PB out of the rights to G4. The reason they ran out of money is the same utter gross incompetence that has plagued this publisher for the last 5 or 6 years.

Hell, not to mention PB had the 1gig patch finished, but was refused payment for their work. Then the idiots at this publisher hired another company PAID them to make about 1gig patch which took several months longer and probably cost twice as much since the new developer didn't know the game as well as the original developers.

Which is why I was asking in a previous post who was the CEO of this publisher and what happened to this company in between G2 and NotR. Did they get bought out by some incompetent company or a new incompetent CEO?

It was great in the early days, Chaser and Arx were my first experiences and drove me to EU sites (i'm sure much to the chagrin of EU sites who've had to put up with me! ) looking for the great games coming out of in Europe, Russia and Asia.

When your making a AAA game you don't take a shit on your best developer. If PB said, "We need 6 more months", then they needed 6 more months. Unless you can provide a single bit of evidence (hell of even half ass credible evidence) PB was not working their ass off to make one of the best RPGs ever, then you need to rethink your position about blaming PB.

ALL the damning evidence points to this publisher, alone.

skavenhorde said:

Maybe they should have taken a step back and made Arx 2.

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They don't have the rights and I'm at least thankful Arkane Studios studios was smart enough not to trust this publisher a second time. Don't even think it was possible as Arkane Studios has had deals with other publisher since they completed Arx. Their studio here in Austin is quite busy for ZeniMax, atm. Now that COULD mean Arx 2!

Oh god….you want to rehash this old debate? Really??? How many years has it been since the forums we're alive with sounds of nerdrage over who was at fault for Gothic 3.

We should have made shirts; "Team Piranha Bytes", "Team JoWooD", "Team Coco"….oh wait that's that other mess.

Bottom line I blame them both. PB did promise us a patch and never delivered. I don't care why or what the reasons were. They broke their word to their fans and sat on a patch that could have saved that mess of a game a hell of a lot sooner. Plus I think their "vision" was too grand. It didn't need to be so huge. That way they may have been able to finish it on time. Was Gothic that huge? Hell no, but it was fun and a great RPG experience.

As for JoWood I can't remember the details to the press releases that started this mess, but that dirty laundry should have never been aired in public. They should have kept it an internal matter. That and then they helped make Arcania….horrible game.

Those are a few of the reasons I blame both of them, but that ship has sailed. Jowood is down for the count and PB is still going strong. If you want to kick a dead horse then have at it, but do it with someone else please.

Thank you Acleacius, that was spot on.

Also a little-realised point, even on the eve of release of G3, Piranha Bytes were highly excited with their game, there was nothing at that point to suggest any foul play.

Then, the G3 gold master was leaked via Jowood, it was freely available to download over the net!

PB must obviously have been cautiously one step in front and pre-empted the situation by making the gold master *non-playable* - a beautiful counter move, then the statement of the gold master being withdrawn was issued.

PB had done no wrong, it was all down to Jowoods despicable incompetence.

Although PB had somewhat saved their own bacon, they have had to eat humble pie ever since.

I dislike JoWood based on the state of the vast majority of the games released under their name.

But there's no way we can really know the internal policies or deals between publisher and developer.

AFAIK, PB has been quite clear in all interviews about taking G3 upon themselves. I haven't heard a single thing from them accusing JoWood of anything.

However, that could be part of the deal - or it could be politics based on wanting to find other publishers and not getting a bad name.

Personally, I think G3 was too ambitious even with the right publisher. The team wasn't big enough to pull it off given a reasonable deadline. So, while I'm sure JoWood are all about the money - I don't think they're necessarily to blame for G3 specifically. G1 and G2 both suffered from pretty severe bugs and stability issues upon release - and both needed fixing the following months.

Risen is the only PB game to come out in a reasonably stable state - and I think it has a lot to do with them aiming rather low and learning from the rough G3 experience.

Acleacius said:

This publisher had absolutely nothing to do with Gothic 1, afaik it was Xicat Interactive, Inc.

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The publisher for Gothic (1) in germany (which would have been the one funding development, I beleive) was dtp entertainment / shoebox.

Hmm, somehow ubisoft must also have been involved - I remember the forums were on their servers for a while, or am I wrong?

Gothic 1 was published by Shoebox . Shoebox itself was a joint venture between dtp entertainment and Egmont Interactive.

Of course PB was partially to blame for the state of G3. They promised to deliver X at date Y, but didn't. The game got pushed back. They still didn't deliver. They became over ambitious, which they've admitted more than once. JoWood certainly had a part to play - Blizzard would've let PB finish no matter how long it took - but PB is also to blame: They knew the timeframe and amount of people they had available, they estimated a certain scope and date the project would be done, and that scope/date was just plain wrong. It missed the target by a wide margin.

skavenhorde said:

Oh god….you want to rehash this old debate? Really??? How many years has it been since the forums we're alive with sounds of nerdrage over who was at fault for Gothic 3.

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Here in Germany, everything's relatively clear. Maybe because the information flow is a bit better and more tight.

Roi Danton said:

Gothic 1 was published by Shoebox . Shoebox itself was a joint venture between dtp entertainment and Egmont Interactive.

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Wasn't Egmont Interactive bought by Ubisoft ? Or is my memory playing tricks with me ?

As I recall it, Egmont Interactive was a Danish (Scandinavian) company that published several computergames, among others Giften (the poison), a title in which there was an angel (engel) involved. Egmont Interactive is now long gone, sadly... as Egmont (the parent company) did not make a profit from the other company (Egmont Interactive).
I can't remember if they sold Egmont Interactive to another company, though...

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Wasn't Egmont Interactive bought by Ubisoft ? Or is my memory playing tricks with me ?

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I honestly don't know. A quick google search didn't turn anything up.

skavenhorde said:

Oh god….you want to rehash this old debate? Really??? How many years has it been since the forums we're alive with sounds of nerdrage over who was at fault for Gothic 3.

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I didn't bring it up, looks like it was you.

skavenhorde said:

They broke their word to their fans and sat on a patch that could have saved that mess of a game a hell of a lot sooner.

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Completely and utterly false. Publisher release patches. PB had a patch complete. PB was refused payment by this piece of shit publisher. Piece of shit publisher hires third party developer to make a patch, wasting money, time, destroying business relations and absolutely hilariously ironically destroying the publisher it self.

DArtagnan said:

However, that could be part of the deal - or it could be politics based on wanting to find other publishers and not getting a bad name.

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Last week or two, one of the PB developers made a comment about how they were getting Gothic back and within 24 hours PB's Lawyer (iirc) made a retraction. PB has NOT been able to say anything, truly honest about the situation. Afaik, they took responsibility becasue they respect their community and wanted the fans to know they cared about them. They also did it becasue they are stand up guys/gals.

The publisher for Gothic (1) in germany (which would have been the one funding development, I beleive) was dtp entertainment / shoebox.
Gothic 1 was published by Shoebox .

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Guess, should have mentioned I was referring to the English version, unless you guys mean Shoebox and dtp were the English publishers. I see what you guys mean about it being irrelevant concerning funding, however I knew this publisher wasn't involved at all.

Maylander said:

Of course PB was partially to blame for the state of G3. They promised to deliver X at date Y, but didn't. The game got pushed back. They still didn't deliver. They became over ambitious, which they've admitted more than once.

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Well, guess to each his own. The publisher ran out of money forcing PB to start over becasue they had to build their own engine instead of buying one. Of course PB was require to say things that covered up the fact that this publisher was going bankrupt. Of course PB took the blame, what are they going to tell the truth? No, that would be illegal even since they are not allow to disclose contractual information while under said contract.

If blaming PB becasue they couldn't build an engine and complete one of the most ambitious AAA RPGs to date in half the time (they had to start over and build a new engine) of any other developer and while covering up the gross incompetence of their publisher, then good luck with that position.

Since att (2000 to 2001) the English speaking countries were getting next to no information about German games. I still remember during Gothic 2, PB still wasn't doing any interviews for English gamers, we all had to rely on our German friends to translate for us.