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Default Genshin Impact - Races past $1 Billion on Mobile

March 29th, 2021, 14:46
Another factor I think is worth mentioning, is that this thing installs a kernel-level anticheat system, which was found to persist after the game had been shutdown. For non-technical folks, a program that has kernel-level permissions and an online connection can fully pwn your system - whatever other security you might have, forget it. And this is connecting to a relatively unknown entity in China.

Now, for MMOs and competitive gaming, intrusive anti-cheat provided by trusted companies is tolerated, in order to prevent the experience being ruined by bad actors. But here, the entire fact of the game being run as an online service is unnecessary, and the "anti-cheat" exists only to ensure that people can't modify their own game experience without paying.

Oh, the ways they can go fluff themselves!
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March 29th, 2021, 15:26
I find it amazing people here actually defend something like this. Casinos in Las Vega also look lovely and no one forces you to gamble there either.
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March 29th, 2021, 15:37
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Another factor I think is worth mentioning, is that this thing installs a kernel-level anticheat system, which was found to persist after the game had been shutdown….
This issue has been resolved since Sept 2020 ΒΤW

https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/5818
Last edited by Ripper; March 29th, 2021 at 15:50.
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March 29th, 2021, 15:47
I think we should stage an intervention for HiddenX before it's too late.
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March 29th, 2021, 15:50
Originally Posted by sibroc View Post
This issue has been resolved since Sept 2020 BTW

https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/5818

No it hasn't. The issue is that an anti-cheat (read: anti-avoiding-payment) system with ring 0 system access is installed, providing potentially complete control of your PC, and requiring complete trust of whatever entity controls it. That fact that they decided not to leave it running after the game shuts down, after people complained, is trivial - the security risk is exactly the same.

As I say, competitive types of online games utilise similarly dangerous systems, but some people deem the risk worth it, and choose to trust them, balanced against the problem of the competition being spoiled by cheaters. In this case, they expect you to grant ring 0 access to a Chinese company, to ensure their gacha game gets paid.

No chance.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:10
Okay people, wtf?

1. This game has lootboxes.
2. If you are a gambling addict stay away.
3. It's not the game's problem, but your government did not ban lootboxes unlike Belgium. Will you go list products one by one when the fish stinks from it's head?

Otherwise the game is good.
Unlike actual pay2win crap like FIFA, in here you do not need to buy a single lootbox to progress and complete everything.

1bn on phones is not surprising, tbh I've expected they got more on that gambling market.

I questioned news about Genshin Impact here before.
Basically noone reacted.
How come it's suddenly a problem now?
What exactly did I miss?
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March 29th, 2021, 16:14
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
No it hasn't. The issue is that an anti-cheat (read: anti-avoiding-payment) system with ring 0 system access is installed, providing potentially complete control of your PC, and requiring complete trust of whatever entity controls it. That fact that they decided not to leave it running after the game shuts down, after people complained, is trivial - the security risk is exactly the same.

As I say, competitive types of online games utilise similarly dangerous systems, but some people deem the risk worth it, and choose to trust them, balanced against the problem of the competition being spoiled by cheaters. In this case, they expect you to grant ring 0 access to a Chinese company, to ensure their gacha game gets paid.

No chance.
Of all the things that I have read so far this is the only one that I would find "objectively" to be a consideration. But as you wrote, one that is shared with many games (and basically with almost anything that you install with admin privileges).

The fact that this is a Chinese entity is what makes it suspect. It's kind of funny that we have no problem installing software by state-actors that have been PROVEN to spy on us but we feel threatened by Chinese companies. But I admit I share the concern. It would not stop me ultimately for playing the game if I wanted to though.

You did start with the issue that this anti-cheat was remaining in the system even when the game was not playing and after uninstall (as something that adds to the nefariousness) and that is not the case anymore.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:15
Lets’ assume that this game may indeed trigger to some people some sort of gambling reflex - addiction and that it’s by design. (BTW I don’t see why it’s different than League of Legends or DOTA other than it’s from China).

Since some people made substance abuse comparisons, alcohol is one of the most addictive drugs (and by far the most widespread) out there. And it does cause real misery to a lot of people (not some cash burn-in), people are ruined financially, their lives, relationships, health is destroyed AND they die.

According to some members comments, we shouldn’t praise a good wine? If a respected publication writes an article “praising” a winery or a distillery for their products quality and financial success we should frown and wonder why praise such a deadly substance?

Wouldn’t it follow that we shouldn’t allow wineries, distilleries or liquor stores to exist then because of the danger alcohol poses to some people? Why stop at banning casinos and gambling games?

Anyway, seems like a good game, if I ever was to go near an MMO type game again.
Last edited by sibroc; March 29th, 2021 at 16:28.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:17
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
[…]
Btw, Genshin Impact has a PEGI 12 rating. I guess that's the age where it's fine to steal your parents wallet to start giving into your gambling vices, make a good foundation leading to adulthood. I wonder if we could get a breakdown of how many 12-18 year olds have spent money they don't earn into Genshin Impact and celebrate that too.
So you give your kids online credit card / PayPal access ? How naive someone can be.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:18
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
2. If you are a gambling addict stay away.
Addiction solved! Thanks, Joxer!

Originally Posted by joxer View Post
3. It's not the game's problem, but your government did not ban lootboxes unlike Belgium. Will you go list products one by one when the fish stinks from it's head?
So, any shitty, immoral thing a company does, that is not specifically prohibited by law, is the government's responsibility? Right…
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March 29th, 2021, 16:36
Let's see the positive side for kids as well:

All you need for this game is
  • internet access
  • a ten year old PC
  • time

and you are ready to go - the cheapest AAA game you can get.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:38
Originally Posted by sibroc View Post
Of all the things that I have read so far this is the only one that I would find "objectively" to be a consideration. But as you wrote, one that is shared with many games (and basically with almost anything that you install with admin privileges).

The fact that this is a Chinese entity is what makes it suspect. It's kind of funny that we have no problem installing software by state-actors that have been PROVEN to spy on us but we feel threatened by Chinese companies. But I admit I share the concern. It would not stop me ultimately for playing the game if I wanted to though.

You did start with the issue that this anti-cheat was remaining in the system even when the game was not playing and after uninstall (as something that adds to the nefariousness) and that is not the case anymore.
Well, I think that leaving the system running after the game shut down does add to the suspicious nature. And I would argue that if one does find this suspicious, and the behaviour is only removed after it is discovered, leaving the core security risk in place, then not much has been done to allay concerns.

I do think it's unfortunate to be suspicious of Chinese companies, and I'm sure many of them have no nefarious intent at all, but I do think it's rational to be wary of placing that level of potential control in the hands of what is essentially an adversarial state. It certainly plays into the risk/reward calculation, IMO.

With regard to tolerating similarly intrusive software, for some people I can see the case for accepting it when it seems justified. For me, I don't tolerate it in any circumstances - the intrusive Western corporations are as shut out of my life as possible. A long time ago, and partly in response to Steam's similar anti-cheat system that cheerfully rummages through the entire memory of the system for things it doesn't like, I moved to having a separate gaming PC isolated on the network.

So, it's not so much a personal concern for me, just that I think tolerating such a system merely for the benefit of the vendor is not appealing.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:53
Originally Posted by sibroc View Post
Lets’ assume that this game may indeed trigger to some people some sort of gambling reflex - addiction and that it’s by design. (BTW I don’t see why it’s different than League of Legends or DOTA other than it’s from China).

Since some people made substance abuse comparisons, alcohol is one of the most addictive drugs (and by far the most widespread) out there. And it does cause real misery to a lot of people (not some cash burn-in), people are ruined financially, their lives, relationships, health is destroyed AND they die.

According to some members comments, we shouldn’t praise a good wine? If a respected publication writes an article “praising” a winery or a distillery for their products quality and financial success we should frown and wonder why praise such a deadly substance?

Wouldn’t it follow that we shouldn’t allow wineries, distilleries or liquor stores to exist then because of the danger alcohol poses to some people? Why stop at banning casinos and gambling games?
I think the fundamental flaw with that line of argument, is that we didn't design the ethanol compound from the ground up. It's inherently problematic, because we derive some utility and enjoyment from it, while being stuck with its toxicity.

If we could create non-toxic, non-addictive alcohol that is every bit as enjoyable (which in this analogy might be equivalent to games without gacha mechanics but with everything else intact) we certainly would. And at that point, we might be rather critical of producers trying everything they can to get people hooked on the toxic, addictive version.
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March 29th, 2021, 16:55
In the bright side, Genshin Impact news finally got some replies. Imagine if it had been to discuss how exciting is the 1.4 patch content. Maybe that would mean the game is actually worth talking about, as a game.

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March 29th, 2021, 17:00
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
In the bright side, Genshin Impact news finally got some replies.
I think the news that they'd made a billion with it finally tipped us over the edge.
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March 29th, 2021, 17:00
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
So you give your kids online credit card / PayPal access ? How naive someone can be.
Teaching kids how much fun it is to gamble away their pocket money (most parents have very little control about that once those kids have both smartphones and pocket money) sure won't teach them a how much fun it is to gamble away their incomes as adults. That's why everyone proposes to hand out cigarettes to schoolchildren.

Seriously, that red wine analogy is a worthless piece of whataboutism here since viniculturists don't usually tend to optimise the addictive quality of their product in clandestine meetings. Alcoholism, I'd argue, is a tragic side effect to them.

Games, on the other hand, are NOT inherently addictive. Instead, they have been known to elevate people - temporarily! - from the squalor of their existence among just such things as dependencies and poverty.
And F2P-ripoffs turn all that upside down for a quick or extended cash-grab. How dare you paint them as generous gifts for the poor (kids)! It's "opium für die Massen" all over, no less, and it turns to crap anything it touches in my mind.

Edit: Damn you, Ripper, you and your fast typing skills!
Last edited by Moorkh; March 29th, 2021 at 17:03. Reason: Ripper being a ninja dismantling false points
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March 29th, 2021, 17:43
I have rarely seen so many false assumptions in one thread, mostly by people that never checked out the game. (Exception: Joxer)

Yes - the game has a Gacha system, but you get hundrets of free wishes just by playing the game.
I bought soccer-player pictures (in little bags of 10 pics - yes that was Gacha, too) as a kid to collect them - got I addicted? - did I loose my parents house? - hell no.

Contrary to many pay2win games you don't have to buy anything to play the whole content of the game or to make it easier. (So Ripper's video doesn't apply to this game with the exception of an optional Gacha system).

But, you get more than enough characters to create cool parties - it is even possible to beat the game with the first 4 default characters. (I own for example 20 from a total of 29 characters and got them all without spending any money).

I will continue to enjoy one of the best Action RPGs currently available - and I'll let you know if a paywall will be installed in the future.
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March 29th, 2021, 17:44
If there is one thing an aberration like World of Warcraft taught me ( I mean the online icky thing, not the fine prior iterations), it's that a lot of people can be wrong. And they often are.
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March 29th, 2021, 17:55
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I think the fundamental flaw with that line of argument, is that we didn't design the ethanol compound from the ground up. It's inherently problematic, because we derive some utility and enjoyment from it, while being stuck with its toxicity.

If we could create non-toxic, non-addictive alcohol that is every bit as enjoyable (which in this analogy might be equivalent to games without gacha mechanics but with everything else intact) we certainly would. And at that point, we might be rather critical of producers trying everything they can to get people hooked on the toxic, addictive version.
Interesting thought. I would suggest that this line of argument has an issue on what constitutes "addictiveness" (forgive me the term) and what can cause addiction. People get certainly addicted to non-gacha games, to other people, to sex or even blankets.

Addiction is not necessarily tied in some specific attribute of a "thing".

(And of course, your example has a flaw in that it tries to separate the enjoyment attribute from the addictive one. On behaviors like gambling, the thing that causes the enjoyment is the thing that can cause the addiction. A "safe" bet is a non-bet).

Always happy to engage in civilized arguments and I especially enjoy your non-personal handling and characterizations (which some people seem to have great difficulty avoiding, not only in this thread)
Last edited by sibroc; March 29th, 2021 at 18:45.
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March 29th, 2021, 18:12
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
$1b from which market though?

Globally but primarily in east asia or primarily from US customers, or EU, of any other, or is it equally popular in all countries?

[just trying to work out how culturally relevant the game is in my neck of the woods before finding out and taking an interest in what it is]
The difference between mobile and PC is interesting…

PC Player share as of Feb 2021:

Southeast Asia - 8.15%
Eastern Asia - 6.46%
Latin America 5.74%
Eastern Europe - 3.88%
Western Europe - 3.66%
North America - 3.3%

But for mobile downloads in the same timeframe (I only have these by market - not region):

USA - 4.34 M
China - 4.12 M
Japan - 1.33 M
Russia 971 K

… not showing the other countries but this is from a total of 21.9 monthly active users (which is only 67th on mobile, meaning their monetization is quite good).
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