Pillars of Eternity - Too Many Words

Somewhat related, but oh, boy, what a long, long sword description this is. :D

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As for pretentiousness, I appreciate that Pillars is going for a more serious approach, at least. While BG has humor and what not, Pillars I think was trying to capture the serious RPG approach that BG also had. As I like to say, a very nerdy approach like old-school RPGs/D&D stuff tended to do around that time.

Also, to be fair, the highlighted items in PoE are pretty much optional lore to read, so it's not like they are forcing you to read those. Jeff highlighted them and chose to read them (and then complained afterwards. :p)

You missed the point again Fluent.

That is, 1) a purely descriptive text without any specific references to people or places (notice the use of generic, unspecific words such as culture), 2) it's a fucking item description.

But even if there were some references, it would be completely fine, because that's what ingame books and item descriptions are for! Whereas PoE bombards the player during character creation for gods sake with obscure cultures/locations and historical events you will never experience - which is such a naive, beginner approach.

You need to learn what lore dumps are fluent and when you should use them and when you should not use them. That is the primary issue here, and not word-count strictly speaking, or a descriptive writing style.
 
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Wasn't really making any point with the item description, just thought it would be funny to post. :p

As I said, a lot of those blue highlighted items in PoE's lore descriptions are optional, so if you don't care about them you don't need to read them. Some people do like them, that's why they're there.

Maybe making some of the other descriptions optional during character creation would help people like Jeff, dunno. But I just don't see an issue here. In a simple example of gender selection, it's a new world with new lore so you would want to hear about how gender is treated in it. I mean, the other choice is just say Male/Female, no text. I don't see how that's an improvement in an RPG like this.

Writing can always be improved, but I don't think there's some fundamental flaw here.

And I highly, highly disagree with his opinion on sub-race/sub-class/specialization. I wish more RPGs had more stuff like that.
 
Coming from a long-time MMO player as as yourself - I find the above irony ironic since you still don't understand what MMOs are about :p

I once stood in the same place in EQ2 for 7 hours killing the same set of mobs over and over and it was on exhilarating experience! If you ask me to kill the same mobs in single player RPG for even 7 minutes I would have cried bloody murder!

Edit: this post is now pointless since purpleblob replied quicker than me!

No, it's not really pointless :)

It just goes to show that "quality content" means different things to different people - and the whole "I need something good to bother spending hours" really is so very subjective.

For some, PoE writing was engaging and meaty - and for others, it was apparently boring and overlong.

Which is cool :)

I guess I'm an outlier - because I didn't particularly mind the actual verbosity - it was more about the way they implemented that backer stuff, and I found the writing relatively dull. Except for the Avellone characters - which I think are too extreme or weird for the sake of weird. That said, that's mostly based on Durance - as I didn't spend much time with that Grieving Mother or whatever she was.

But I think the atmosphere and old-school PnP approach fits well with some in-depth descriptions of items and events. That was always part of the PnP experience to me.

So, the character creation with all those lore-related pieces about races and what not is a great fit and helped my immersion.

I especially loved those little text-adventure like bits where you made choices during a text-presentation of events.

One of the cooler parts of the game, to my mind.
 
Deleted - I think I've already posted my thoughts about PoE writing enough in this thread :)
 
Wasn't really making any point with the item description, just thought it would be funny to post. :p

As I said, a lot of those blue highlighted items in PoE's lore descriptions are optional, so if you don't care about them you don't need to read them. Some people do like them, that's why they're there.

Again, item descriptions are not a problem. They are there for flavor and are completely fine.

Writing can always be improved, but I don't think there's some fundamental flaw here.

There absolutely is a fundamental flaw and that is the dosage & timing of lore-dumps.

The goal of writing lore is reaching it through gameplay, writing should be the REWARD (Morrowind did this well). If your writing is something the player has to slog through (for example PoE) then that's bad storytelling.
 
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Problem is, you don't read a game in a linear way, like the way you read a book. So lots of stuff needs to be repeated in various places in case you missed it the first time by ignoring an NPC, or not spotting a letter, or whatever. Dragon Age drove me INSANE with endless chatter abut the Chantry vs. Mages (for example), freaking beat you over the head with it. I'm so sick of hearing about the Chantry vs. the Mages I want to scream.

"Excuse me sir, Can I tell you about the Chantry vs Mage conflict? I'm sure you'd love to know….Sir?"

Anyway, on topic, yes, although I enjoy reading the was rather a lot of stuff to wade through in PoE and I ended up ignoring a lot of it.There is something to be said for brevity....You really don't need a wall of text to communicate most ideas...as I tell my students.
 
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No, you don't need to be verbose, but I strongly feel there is room for all styles of writing, RPG design and the like. That is why when people criticize Numenera for having 1.5 million words, I just say that they should play something else. There is plenty of room for an RPG to have more words than the Bible, just as much as there is room for RPGs to have less words than the back of a cereal box. And all in between.

That said, more is not indicative of quality in any way, but I know that I personally love quantity in an RPG when the systems and quality are sufficient, at least above average. And there's room for that design.
 
I never played PoE all the way through (stopped shortly after getting the stronghold) but I definitely agree with his assessment. Although I didn't stop because of the uninteresting lore dumps & walls of text, I stopped because of the tedious RTwP combat.

Same here. Think I managed to get about a dozen hours in before I couldn't stomach the combat anymore.
 
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Reading through the thread, a number of posters seem to miss the point by not seeing past the 'too many words' phrase, but it seems to me quite clear from the article that Vogel isn't opposed to many words per se; his criticism is rather one of pace, a question of when to provide information, and what.

I need to point out that I haven't played PoE, but speaking generally about RPGs, it seems to me that a number of game writers ought to learn a couple of lessons from fantasy writers, or simply authors in general. Because there is such a thing as bad writing; everything is not just about taste, some things are just bad. Writing description, exposition, dialogue and so on is a skill and one that generally sets professional writers apart from amateur writers.

I have neither gotten around to play the new Torment yet, so this is a comment purely based on my impression of that game, which is that the writing is generally bloated, full of long lore dumps and, with some exceptions, rather purple prose. If that is the case, then it is not a question of writing style, that's just bad writing. And not because I say so, but because basically every professional writer will say so. Again, keep in mind I haven't actually played the game so my impressions may well be wrong.

But it is, to take an example, a common trait among amateur writers to bloat their text with an unnecessary amount of adjectives and adverbs, to add an adjective to pretty much any noun and always some adverb after 'said'. It is pretty much writing 101 that, although it can be difficult at times, you should strive to avoid that. If you have actually developed your characters properly, and you know how to write good dialogue, it is not even necessary as the tone in which a character speaks will be apparent to the reader most of the time. I don't know if this is relevant to PoE though.

And heavy use of info dumps generally seem to be typical of amateur fantasy writers who have fallen in love with their own world building and seem to think that every reader will be equally as interested in every minute detail as the author. Some will, certainly, but most will not (and not because they don't like reading or have short attention spans; why would you then be reading a book in the first place?), especially if you haven't even given them a reason to care about the world in the first place. And even then, some details are just not relevant (except to the occasional world building geek), as they add nothing to the story.

Now granted, how to do good world building is something that also fantasy authors often struggle with, as it's not always that easy to find the right balance. Some authors I feel go a little too far to the minimalistic side, and I would really like to know a little more. But most seem to agree that info dumping is the last resort, and that world building can be weaved into the narrative in a more elegant way. I suspect that many have been inspired by the beginning of LotR, as that is basically one huge info dumb on everything hobbits, thinking that if Tolkien could do it, so can they. Except most people are not Tolkien, and they also seem to have missed that for the remainder of the story, he put quite a good amount of world building info into the appendix, for those who would be interested to read more. I think this is a better way of doing it, and also for games, to add a separate wiki of some sort.

Again, I haven't played PoE, so I'm not sure if any of this is very relevant. Just my thoughts for what they are worth. And yes, you can probably also argue that this post could be edited down and made more concise, as this got long, so I'll just stop now.
 
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Reading through the thread, a number of posters seem to miss the point by not seeing past the 'too many words' phrase, but it seems to me quite clear from the article that Vogel isn't opposed to many words per se; his criticism is rather one of pace, a question of when to provide information, and what.

I need to point out that I haven't played PoE, but speaking generally about RPGs, it seems to me that a number of game writers ought to learn a couple of lessons from fantasy writers, or simply authors in general. Because there is such a thing as bad writing; everything is not just about taste, some things are just bad. Writing description, exposition, dialogue and so on is a skill and one that generally sets professional writers apart from amateur writers.

I have neither gotten around to play the new Torment yet, so this is a comment purely based on my impression of that game, which is that the writing is generally bloated, full of long lore dumps and, with some exceptions, rather purple prose. If that is the case, then it is not a question of writing style, that's just bad writing. And not because I say so, but because basically every professional writer will say so. Again, keep in mind I haven't actually played the game so my impressions may well be wrong.

But it is, to take an example, a common trait among amateur writers to bloat their text with an unnecessary amount of adjectives and adverbs, to add an adjective to pretty much any noun and always some adverb after 'said'. It is pretty much writing 101 that, although it can be difficult at times, you should strive to avoid that. If you have actually developed your characters properly, and you know how to write good dialogue, it is not even necessary as the tone in which a character speaks will be apparent to the reader most of the time. I don't know if this is relevant to PoE though.

And heavy use of info dumps generally seem to be typical of amateur fantasy writers who have fallen in love with their own world building and seem to think that every reader will be equally as interested in every minute detail as the author. Some will, certainly, but most will not (and not because they don't like reading or have short attention spans; why would you then be reading a book in the first place?), especially if you haven't even given them a reason to care about the world in the first place. And even then, some details are just not relevant (except to the occasional world building geek), as they add nothing to the story.

Now granted, how to do good world building is something that also fantasy authors often struggle with, as it's not always that easy to find the right balance. Some authors I feel go a little too far to the minimalistic side, and I would really like to know a little more. But most seem to agree that info dumping is the last resort, and that world building can be weaved into the narrative in a more elegant way. I suspect that many have been inspired by the beginning of LotR, as that is basically one huge info dumb on everything hobbits, thinking that if Tolkien could do it, so can they. Except most people are not Tolkien, and they also seem to have missed that for the remainder of the story, he put quite a good amount of world building info into the appendix, for those who would be interested to read more. I think this is a better way of doing it, and also for games, to add a separate wiki of some sort.

Again, I haven't played PoE, so I'm not sure if any of this is very relevant. Just my thoughts for what they are worth. And yes, you can probably also argue that this post could be edited down and made more concise, as this got long, so I'll just stop now.

I didn't miss it and I still disagree with Vogel.

As for Tolkien, he's actually surprisingly terse in his articulation. He just had a hell of a lot to say :)
 
Subjective vs Objective Reality - a Primer

Eh you will always be a mystery to me, Gnome… (also don't ever change your nick :))

I guess you're the ideal modern consumer, along with Fluent and wolfgrim :)
DIFFERENT standards, DIFFERENT expectations, SOME THINGS ARE wonderful and its SOMETIMES the customer's fault :D

Fixed your quote for ya there! And yes, I am a mystery. Even to those closest to me.

Muhahaha. ;)

In all seriousness, we're talking about subjective opinions here in a very odd way. All of these gaming arguments come down to matters of taste, and you know what developers care about? Selling games. Gamers care about many different things, as evidenced by the many, many genres of games out there and the many types of games to be found within each genre.

I personally hated The Witcher 3. I prefer turn based games and only wish PoE had MORE text with a turn-based instead of RTwP system. I'm not fond of ARPGs in general except the Diablo 2 type. These are all tastes, not objective realities about these games. The Witcher 3 wasn't a "bad" game, I just personally didn't like it. Many others did.

Arguing taste is one of the oddest past times to me, I'd rather create my own original content and run some D&D games for friends than argue matters of taste.
 
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Outlier?

I guess I'm an outlier - because I didn't particularly mind the actual verbosity -

Were you really an "outlier" when the game did well enough to do a sequel? All game developers should be so lucky to have their "niche" games sell as well as PoE did.
 
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I didn't miss it and I still disagree with Vogel.

As for Tolkien, he's actually surprisingly terse in his articulation. He just had a hell of a lot to say :)

No, I wasn't actually thinking of you with that particular remark (from what I remember of your previous posts in this thread that is. Been reading it over some days now, so don't remember all comments perfectly) ;)

Anyway, maybe I got a little off topic with that wall of text (considering I haven't even played PoE). There were just some general things about RPG writing that have been on my mind lately, and I saw a change to put it into writing :p

EDIT: If I may dare, I remember your comments as more of a side-line attempt at making sense of the particular approach to writing in PoE. And to clarify, I don't mean 'side-line' as a negative. Perhaps a poor choice of word, but I see it as a positive.

And with respect to Vogel's criticism, I don't agree with every one of his suggestions, but I agree with the basic premise of his critique.
 
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Fixed your quote for ya there! And yes, I am a mystery. Even to those closest to me.

Muhahaha. ;)

In all seriousness, we're talking about subjective opinions here in a very odd way. All of these gaming arguments come down to matters of taste, and you know what developers care about? Selling games. Gamers care about many different things, as evidenced by the many, many genres of games out there and the many types of games to be found within each genre.

I personally hated The Witcher 3. I prefer turn based games and only wish PoE had MORE text with a turn-based instead of RTwP system. I'm not fond of ARPGs in general except the Diablo 2 type. These are all tastes, not objective realities about these games. The Witcher 3 wasn't a "bad" game, I just personally didn't like it. Many others did.

Arguing taste is one of the oddest past times to me, I'd rather create my own original content and run some D&D games for friends than argue matters of taste.

Ding ding ding! ElderGnome wins the thread. :)
 
Fixed your quote for ya there! And yes, I am a mystery. Even to those closest to me.

Muhahaha. ;)

In all seriousness, we're talking about subjective opinions here in a very odd way. All of these gaming arguments come down to matters of taste, and you know what developers care about? Selling games. Gamers care about many different things, as evidenced by the many, many genres of games out there and the many types of games to be found within each genre.

I personally hated The Witcher 3. I prefer turn based games and only wish PoE had MORE text with a turn-based instead of RTwP system. I'm not fond of ARPGs in general except the Diablo 2 type. These are all tastes, not objective realities about these games. The Witcher 3 wasn't a "bad" game, I just personally didn't like it. Many others did.

Arguing taste is one of the oddest past times to me, I'd rather create my own original content and run some D&D games for friends than argue matters of taste.

Under which circumstances would you consider "too may words" as poor writing?
 
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Under which circumstances would you consider "too may words" as poor writing?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but personally, never. Quality of writing is not dependent on amount of words, as writing with tons of words can be good, or bad, and the same is true for lower word counts.

ElderGnome is spot on. There is not "one size fits all" of anything in art design, whether it's writing, a style of making music or a way to paint a picture. So it's really a case by case basis, and a matter of taste.
 
Isn't that the point of the criticism "too many words"? Someone is using bad words or unnecessary words to describe something?

There're no amount of words that automatically equal bad writing. There's no rules to this stuff.
 
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