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February 21st, 2017, 10:19
Just a quick reminder, this isn't about which game you think is the 'best' or 'favourite' computer RPG, but which one you feel most 'ideally' matches what you imagine a computer RPG to be like. There's a good chance you didn't even really like it that much, you might have thought it lacked something, but what it presented still 'felt' like the most ideal computer RPG. My personal pick, for example, is way, way down on my list of favourite games. I'll write about it when I've thought how to word it more.

Also, the thread is quite specific about its rules (something I greatly appreciate in computer RPGs) and it seems like some of you feel desperate to mod the thread into something else

Finally, @zloth, what a cop-out my man, what a cop-out…
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February 21st, 2017, 10:29
You can find something ideal yet not like it that much? Huh. That's… something.

Baldur's Gate, the city itself is my ideal RPG city. Maybe. For an isometric RPG. I also like it very much.

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February 21st, 2017, 11:35
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
You can find something ideal yet not like it that much? Huh. That's… something.
Well, I think you'd probably enjoy it, but it might not be the favorite. For example, I answered MM7, due to the fact that it simply ticks all the boxes I have for what an RPG is supposed to be.

However, I prefer Gothic 2 to MM7 overall (they're both in my top 10), as I simply find it more fun. MM7 is still the stronger, more pure RPG though, because it doesn't have a pre-defined character (The Witcher series has the same problem). I consider that quite an issue in terms of RPG elements, as it makes it hard for people to "roleplay themselves" if that's what they enjoy.
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February 21st, 2017, 13:41
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Just a quick reminder, this isn't about which game you think is the 'best' or 'favourite' computer RPG, but which one you feel most 'ideally' matches what you imagine a computer RPG to be like. There's a good chance you didn't even really like it that much, you might have thought it lacked something, but what it presented still 'felt' like the most ideal computer RPG. My personal pick, for example, is way, way down on my list of favourite games. I'll write about it when I've thought how to word it more.

Also, the thread is quite specific about its rules (something I greatly appreciate in computer RPGs) and it seems like some of you feel desperate to mod the thread into something else

Finally, @zloth, what a cop-out my man, what a cop-out…
Most players on this forum are PC-gamers who enjoy modding things.
For example, I finished XCOM2 on Veteran Ironman, and decided that it would be too difficult with timers as they are. So increased them by a few turns
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February 21st, 2017, 13:44
A fascinating derail Pladio, perhaps you could hone-in on my use of the word cop-out and start elaborating on all the cop shows you like as well.
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February 21st, 2017, 15:06
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
A fascinating derail Pladio, perhaps you could hone-in on my use of the word cop-out and start elaborating on all the cop shows you like as well.


Perhaps you could be less hostile too :-)

I already said my piece about my type of rpg and thought you hit a good point that deserved a response.

If you prefer people to only say what you want then better to put me on ignore and all the others who didn't respond in the exact manner you wanted. This is a forum and not a "speak dog " message board.

Note that you're the one who posted about modding first not me.


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February 21st, 2017, 17:07
Well, live life to the max so why not stick my head in a bee nest.

After further explanation of the topic and a reminder not to derail the thread, you, Pladio, deliberately started talking about having modded a certain game.

Why? Having a bad mood? Weird coming from you:

Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Hello all. […]
I would prefer this not to become a debate, but more of an open question to people.
It is not about what you think is better for everyone else, but just about you and your closed one.
[…]
In that thread even a moderator stepped in (in all fairness: without having been asked to do that though you thanked her later):
Originally Posted by Jaz View Post
Just a little reminder - the OP's intentions with this thread were the following (bolded by me to make it easier for you to understand):
So if you have another agenda, take it somewhere else.
Thank you.
Do you, Pladio, think a moderator ought to step in to keep this thread of lackblogger within the OP's intention, or do you - really - want to be put on ignore just because you wish to resist an OP's request and additional reminder?

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Edit:
Sorry lackblogger, for again derailing the thread. I hope it'll have your sympathy though.
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February 21st, 2017, 17:33
Off topic:
Well, I guess some people just hate rules and asking them to stick to the topic and rules it's imposed by OP is too much. They will shout freedom of expression as if they are only allowed to comment on other people's topics and not make their own, with their own rules (or lack thereof). I've witnessed so many derailed or stolen topics on this forum it's almost comical.
On topic:
It's really a hard question for me and I like it. I'm still not ready to answer it but I've narrowed it to three games that came closest to an ideal RPG in my opinion.
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February 21st, 2017, 18:45
When I started playing RPGs on the computer, I'd already played a number of pen & paper rpgs, most of the time I'd spent playing Dungeons and Dragons. Later I went on to play, to a lesser extent Shadowrun, Vampire, Battletech, GURPS, and the Call of Cthulu. I loved playing pen and paper games because you could create millions of different kinds of characters both in terms of game mechanics, and in terms of how you roleplay them. My first two crpgs were Bard's Tale 3 and Pool of Radiance, and those satisfied me in a mechanical sense and recaptured that pen and paper feel. The game that blew me away the most when I played it was Planescape: Torment. I really felt that I was not only roleplaying a mechanical character, but the world made me feel like I was actually roleplaying a character and defining who I was.
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February 21st, 2017, 19:30
My choice is a game I didn’t particularly enjoy, and that choice is The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Like probably many of my age, my rpg’ing roots can be found in Dungeons and Dragons, choose your own adventure books, and such things as the D&D cartoon that aired on tele. My further, possibly less common influences come from such places as Tolkien, CS Lewis, greek myth, history in general and any general fantasy movies and tv shows. From a gaming perspective, I prefer thought-provoking gameplay to action, such as say chess or cleudo rather than kerplunk or twister.

The first batch of games I played all interested me greatly and were all D&D based and could all have been contenders for my choice, as indeed could many non-D&D ones I explored once I had played the D&D ones, but the golden game had not been released yet and I wouldn’t even find out about it until a couple of years after it was released, that being ToEE, which never even made the shops where I lived (at least not on the days I visited).

ToEE promised my personal perfection:

A D&D game presented in the ‘correct’ module format, rather than an epic for the sake of padded epic.

Vast character customisation combined with a large player party, which could be all chosen by the player from scratch or recruited pre-built from interesting NPCs who’d then convert to player-controlled characters.

A combat system which tried its best to really nail the concept of the D&D turn-based structure, providing finite tactical chance-taking combined with moderate RNG dice rolls and dictated entirely by character build choices from long-term strategical considerations.

The town was littered with interesting and engaging NPCs, all with their own story to tell and potential quests and intrigue.

Once out in the wild, it was wild, with all kinds of weird and unusual beasts interrupting your safe passage.

The quest destination was a dungeon-like labyrinth filled with interesting puzzle-like stuff to figure out while the game’s bestiary continued to expand exponentially without resorting to repetition, the further you went the less and less human everything felt. Like walking deeper and deeper into a fantastical dream.

The journey provided much in the way of loot without ever feeling like it was dropping like rain and without making you feel like nothing was worth looting. Every loot pile could be examined with scrutiny with barely any shrugs of disappointment.

Alas, the game was rushed out the door before completion and was not only buggy but felt half-finished in a lot of areas. I played the game straight from a retail disk and am aware of the Circle of Eight patch but have yet to play that version, and, even with that patch, I’ve already lost that magical wonder of seeing the game for the first time, something that’s really crucial for an RPG imo. Yes, the patch will make the game better, but I’ll still never know what it would have been like to play the game with the patch for the first time.

Also, the game is inherently flawed regardless of patching by it being quite a boring module in the first place, something no amount of patching can cure. All imo on this particular point, of course. But what’s important about the game, regardless of its personal boringness level is what it represents as what could have been:

Over time, say one or two a year, plus copycats, the concept of the module-based structure of RPG’ing could have provided so many interesting and varied modules that, combined, they would provide the same sense of epic as a full, traditionally epic RPG, but just delivered in more manageable, selective, chunks, much like what happened with the Neverwinter Nights modding community (modding here meaning module creation).

Had this game not existed then I’d likely go for a NWN game, Hordes of the Underdark, another module-based RPG which was just so utterly perfect in so many regards but was beaten to the punch here because of the rather awful party mechanics. HotU was so entertaining that I obviously enjoyed it far more than ToEE by a more than considerable margin, but it didn’t feel as ‘real’ as ToEE in terms of what I imagine a perfect RPG to be.
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February 21st, 2017, 19:53
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
My choice is a game I didn’t particularly enjoy, and that choice is The Temple of Elemental Evil.

ToEE promised my personal perfection:

A D&D game presented in the ‘correct’ module format, rather than an epic for the sake of padded epic.

Vast character customisation combined with a large player party, which could be all chosen by the player from scratch or recruited pre-built from interesting NPCs who’d then convert to player-controlled characters.

A combat system which tried its best to really nail the concept of the D&D turn-based structure, providing finite tactical chance-taking combined with moderate RNG dice rolls and dictated entirely by character build choices from long-term strategical considerations.

The town was littered with interesting and engaging NPCs, all with their own story to tell and potential quests and intrigue.

Once out in the wild, it was wild, with all kinds of weird and unusual beasts interrupting your safe passage.

The quest destination was a dungeon-like labyrinth filled with interesting puzzle-like stuff to figure out while the game’s bestiary continued to expand exponentially without resorting to repetition, the further you went the less and less human everything felt. Like walking deeper and deeper into a fantastical dream.

The journey provided much in the way of loot without ever feeling like it was dropping like rain and without making you feel like nothing was worth looting. Every loot pile could be examined with scrutiny with barely any shrugs of disappointment.

Alas, the game was rushed out the door before completion and was not only buggy but felt half-finished in a lot of areas. I played the game straight from a retail disk and am aware of the Circle of Eight patch but have yet to play that version, and, even with that patch, I’ve already lost that magical wonder of seeing the game for the first time, something that’s really crucial for an RPG imo. Yes, the patch will make the game better, but I’ll still never know what it would have been like to play the game with the patch for the first time.

Also, the game is inherently flawed regardless of patching by it being quite a boring module in the first place, something no amount of patching can cure. All imo on this particular point, of course. But what’s important about the game, regardless of its personal boringness level is what it represents as what could have been:

Over time, say one or two a year, plus copycats, the concept of the module-based structure of RPG’ing could have provided so many interesting and varied modules that, combined, they would provide the same sense of epic as a full, traditionally epic RPG, but just delivered in more manageable, selective, chunks, much like what happened with the Neverwinter Nights modding community (modding here meaning module creation).

Had this game not existed then I’d likely go for a NWN game, Hordes of the Underdark, another module-based RPG which was just so utterly perfect in so many regards but was beaten to the punch here because of the rather awful party mechanics. HotU was so entertaining that I obviously enjoyed it far more than ToEE by a more than considerable margin, but it didn’t feel as ‘real’ as ToEE in terms of what I imagine a perfect RPG to be.
It was really fun to make characters and fight in that game. What an excellent game ToEE was mechanically. Too bad like you say, it was a boring story and poorly executed. The voice acting was abysmal and the NPCs were given no life. How could this be the same group of developers who made such interesting npcs in Arcanum and Vampire?!
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February 21st, 2017, 22:15
ToEE was a typical D&D campaign, IMO. I enjoyed the questing and the "natural" way the game unfolded, and the way various skill-checks in questing worked were really interesting. For example, NPCs and quests could be triggered depending on whether the character speaking to the NPC was male or female, or various skill-checks, etc.

Abysmal voice acting? I dunno, man. I think the game is fine. It wasn't meant to be a story-heavy RPG. The last dungeon is a sight to behold and the game is mostly a tactical combat D&D campaign based around exploration. I want more RPGs like ToEE.

Edit - And word to module-based RPGs. Would love, love, love to see more of that! NWN, ToEE, etc.

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February 22nd, 2017, 02:54
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Had this game not existed then I’d likely go for a NWN game, Hordes of the Underdark, another module-based RPG which was just so utterly perfect in so many regards but was beaten to the punch here because of the rather awful party mechanics. HotU was so entertaining that I obviously enjoyed it far more than ToEE by a more than considerable margin, but it didn’t feel as ‘real’ as ToEE in terms of what I imagine a perfect RPG to be.
NWN1 was a huge missed opportunity. Not saying the game is bad, I enjoyed HotU a lot as well. But as you mentioned henchman system was a huge let down and UI wasn't as good as IE games.

I also didn't like how it was clearly divided into each chapter/separate module. It sort of "cut off" flows. Each chapter was distinctively different, I felt I was playing different game altogether - especially from Chapter 1 to 2. Chapter 3 is definitely my favourite. Chapter 1 was purely dungeon crawl + solving puzzles. Chapter 2 was considerably better but missed "wow" element as it felt like copy/paste of BG2 Underdark, albeit smaller. Chapter 3 had it all - puzzles, dungeon crawling, story telling, NPC developments and most importantly plane travels - I thoroughly enjoyed exploring Cania.
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February 22nd, 2017, 03:35
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Finally, @zloth, what a cop-out my man, what a cop-out…
That's what I was thinking when I wrote it… but it's the truth! Apparently sometimes the truth cops. <shrug>
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February 22nd, 2017, 08:19
I'll say The Age of Decadence.

I don't know whether it might be better if it had a more traditional level up system or somehow prevented you from "hoarding" skill points and removing the temptation to reload as you see fit as I've seen some suggest. I only wish I could "play it again for the first time" as I've played through and restarted it so many times I now pretty much know exactly how I'd build my character for each of the backgrounds.
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February 22nd, 2017, 10:21
That's an interesting choice daveyd, after 40 odd years of cRPGs you go for a game that's only been available for purchase for 1 year. For those that aren't overly familiar with the game, could you elaborate a little on why this game suddenly gave you something close to the imagined perfection after so many years of other products?
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February 22nd, 2017, 10:30
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
NWN1 was a huge missed opportunity. Not saying the game is bad, I enjoyed HotU a lot as well. But as you mentioned henchman system was a huge let down and UI wasn't as good as IE games.
Oh man. I remember the NWN hype back in the days. Despite being a good game, one I still replay from time to time, it's also one of the biggest disappointments I've experienced related to a new game. I was basically expecting a 3D Baldur's Gate, and BG2 even has a loading screen that says you can import your character into NWN once it's out.

Over time, the focus shifted I suppose, and the campaign ended up being little more than a prototype for the toolset, which was the clear focus by the time it was released. Ah well.
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February 22nd, 2017, 10:58
I suppose another game that could of been ideal for me was Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader. So much missed potential in that one. What the game promised was an alternative fantastic take on historical events using a gurps system like Fallout. Gurps is severely under used in rpg development which is a crying shame because it allows for alot of roleplaying if used to its potential much like Fallout. What was particularly egregious was the front loading of content that would fool reviewers into thinking the game offered more than it did.

If bg2 was my ideal fantasy rpg, Starcon 2 is my ideal space rpg.

You could traverse its galaxy and have your actions reflected over time in a tangible way. Some species could be eradicated, move across the stars for various reasons or change personality completely. There were ancient mysteries to uncover, lore that played a part in events and wasn't just for window dressing. The species each had a unique musical number and talked in a particular way. How you choose to converse with them matters as they all had species traits like the cowardly Spathi. Lots of unique items could only be uncovered by solving various species woes.

You had a spaceship you could upgrade over time and could build a fleet of allied ships. Planet exploration was simple and not ideal but the best Toys for Bob could do with the tech of the time. I would of liked it to be more like the melee combat but flying over the planet with your landing craft stunning hostile creatures and digging out resources with a mining laser. It would of looked nicer if nothing else. Also when exploring alien ruins such as cities I would of liked the lander craft to land and then go to an iso style squad system like Stellar Tactics is doing rather than just getting a text box explaining what is found.
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February 22nd, 2017, 11:42
Wow. Importing a char from BG2 to NWN? Insanely cool! Ah well. I love RPG for the modules.

Agreed on GURPS, Silver. I liked the first 15 hours of Lionheart. I got distracted by another game, though. It's more Diablo-style later in the game?

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February 22nd, 2017, 23:44
My ideal RPG would something along the lines of: meaningful choices for both character creation and progression as well as for decisions in quests and story-lines, a large atmospheric and immersive open world to explore, characters that are actually believable and that you can really get to know, lots of lore to delve into, plenty of dialogue options when interacting with characters in the game and a lot of off the rails quests and content. Ideally you want to be able to feel like your character is unique, and that their destiny is yours to decide.

I think that Bethesda games are the closest to this, but obviously they do not meet all of the above criteria.
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