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August 30th, 2019, 04:26
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Yes, it did. First, it's EA. Second, there was news that the combat was more action-based. When the demo came out, the haters came out in force.
Oh, you mean after they had actually experienced the product… not before. Gotcha.

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Excuse me? Did human nature change in the past decade? Somebody needs to tell all those marketing folks out there trying to use the old "see, the pretty people like our product, don't you like it?" line in their advertisements.
"Pretty people", what effin' planet are you on. LMAO. Tell me one single occasion on this site or any where someone hasn't openly spoken about their true feelings for a game. Ever.

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Errr, no it isn't? You say so below? Huh? Wha??
Errr, yes it isn't? You say no below? Huh? Wha??

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Yes, they are.
No they're not.

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
They are subjected to them (especially when the hate starts before release) but they do try to counter-act them and seem to be fairly successful. They certainly leave casual user reviewers in the dust.
You seem obsessed about hate before release, but there is zero evidence of hate before release, even your own example was from people actually playing the game. But then citation isn't your strong point I guess.

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Utterly disgusting because… why?

Also, definitely not an assumption. What? Do you think I sleep all da… {looks at his own avatar} AHEM! Moving right along…

I read a lot of reviews, you know. A LOT. Critics' reviews, user reviews, probably even your reviews on this forum. I play quite a few games, too. The reviews from critics seem sensible to me. I may not agree with the score but I can usually tell why easily enough. For instance, if a review is trashing a game for micromanagement or because the animations are too slow, it means I'll probably like the game more than the reviewer. If corrupt reviews are rampant and pushing the scores way up or down, that really shouldn't be happening.
Yes, and the wonderful thing about aggregation is the horseshit reviews get buried in the sea of normality, the zeroes get countered by the 10s. It's still a weak system, but review scores have been completely shamed.

A nice appeal to RPGWatch by implying I'm talking about Watch reviews, even though Watch reviews are not used for any aggregates and are therefore not going to have any monetary value to a developer.

How about if a review is trashing a game for parachuting wave mobs, uninspired enemy variety, tedious loot system, banal dialogue, generically repeated assets rendering exploration complete after visiting the first few quests, and then, to add insult, have you go back to the same cave for the next quest. Oh, wait, the 10,000,000 word list of factual reasons why DA2 stunk isn't worth repeating, you know it all already, but heh, why should that stop your bullshit train, I mean, it's 'opinions' isn't it

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Yes, the critics are making their reviews ASAP because that's when the readers want to know. It would be nice if they would re-review after major patches and maybe even major mods but there already aren't enough reviewers to keep up with first releases - having their critics re-review just wouldn't be profitable.
How about we encourage the industry to release a finished game on day one? Nah, what a fucking bizarre notion that is, eh… I mean, just because Nintendo and Jeff Vogel can do it, why in God's name does that mean it's a sensible notion? Much beter to just sit around and wait, eh. And wait. And wait. And wait, each 'review' just being more of a promotional opportunity, eh.

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Most every game tries to maximize early sales. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything?
Do they? Whatever happened to the principle that RPGs are games that have long tails, you know, one of the factors that lead to RPGs being popular for publishers to encourage. Funnily enough, the stats, you know, the facts, show that the concept of Day-One-Purchases as the primary marketing plan began with EA and Dragon Age 2. Because who needs quality control when everyone's already bought the game before the shitstorm hits…

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
And then many do. Some don't get better enough and some get even worse, but quite a few really get better.
Really, do they? You amaze me. You mean some don't actually get better even though they spend literally years trying to make them better? You mean that's not a 100% statistic? Wow, incredible, how is that even physically possible? Some actually get worse? Jeezus effin'… So tell me, what's the factual percentage? Do you even know or is this more words you've pulled out your ass on the spur of the trolling moment?

Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Not to worry, every time you get blunt and crude, people will tend to believe me more than you.
So it's not about facts with you, it's about phycological manipulation of people's emotions? Classy…
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August 30th, 2019, 04:37
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
OK. All I'm trying to say is that I sometimes risk alienating people, if I think it's worth it or I'm particularly annoyed about something. If you stay in that gear all the time, I think it's very much to diminishing returns, and you'll alienate almost everyone, unnecessarily.
Oh don't worry, I'm fully aware of the people who are perpetually alienated by me

Also, I only have two gears, stop and fully operational death star. I also look a bit like Peter Cushing if I diet for long enough
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August 30th, 2019, 07:22
One feature Steam added which is helpful is 'recent' scores to differentiate from overall score. A lot of fan hater/lovers will post their 0/10 when the games first comes out but as the game ages you tend to get better representation of scores (we hope). Also it is helpful to read the reviews (i.e, a negative review because of lack of hairwork or supporting coop) isn't quite the same as a negative review because a description of poor game-play or silly story arches).
-
I tried to look at a few games and have these results:
torment tides: overall mostly postive 70% - recent mixed 60% (but this one is problematic because there are only 10 recent reviews - here is one of the negative comments - you can decide if it is relevant:
"The problem with the game is that as a story based game, it has no substance. It is the equivalent to a lazy college student story about a hallucination. While a little interesting at first, it never touches the ground; it never covers anything relatable, so after a dozen hours of gameplay (I use that word loosely) the seemingly Dadaist throwback nonsense of the universe becomes exhausting. There are too many characters that are "I am a WORD." or "I don't exist in this plane but I do, but I am the remnant of a mind that was in the past and the future at the same time, but also might not be that either". Neither of those examples is an exaggeration. Since the nonsense becomes exhausting, the initial mysteries lose their wonder as well because if anything goes, any answer will do."
---
The other negative reviews mostly talk about the game either having a lot of bugs (and wasting time working around them) or being boring.
---
another sample:
(wasteland 2 dc): (66% mixed but only 12 reviews - here is one of the negative ones)
"POSTED: AUGUST 22
I enjoy the game but there is a very annoying bug that breaks a key quest required to open the second half of the story. This bug means the jail in the Ranger Citadel is not accessible even though a key NPC is there. Without talking to this NPC there is no way to advance. For a game with multiple options, it is frustrating that there is no story alternative to this bugged step. I have searched the 'net for a solution or a workaround."
--
Conversely we have divinity sin 2 dc: 95% followed by 92%
pathfinder kingmaker ED: is 72% followed by 60% - here is an interesting negative review by someone who has 69 hours of play time:
"This game is simply too time consuming, and its tempo makes it hard to keep player's interest to follow its narrative. I like some of the subplot, even some of the characters, but I most of the time I just wander around the map, load the game again and again (because I am an idiot newbie and did not know there is a turn base mod), rest the party again and again, and hardly get the really interesting part. The game concept itself is really fun, you get to establish a kingdom as a mercenary. But for me, who is still new to this kind of game mode, it just feels plain and frustrating most of the time. I tried to change it into the easiest difficulty, trying to ease the frustration, but it just spoil the whole game, and I realize I just don't care about it anymore, because no matter the difficulty, the fight itself is just not that fun. It is hard for me to give this review, I had spent almost 70 hours in last few weeks in this, but I have to give this a thumb down."
(I'm 1/4 into kingmaker myself and kind of agree that this game has an annoying issue with constant resting/random fights/travelling that takes a lot of fun out of the game narrative - but i'll play more before making a final decision)
--
anyway it is somewhat tedious to extract the data in this fashion - but at least steam makes it easy to narrow the reviews you want to read based on a timeline which also helps to filter out the initial spam of reviews - I suppose some of this process could be automated with a bit of scripting but the data is there for those who want to examine it.
---
One comment on the initial list - i do believe the last edition of the game should be used (i.e., director cut/definitive edition/enhanced edition). My argument would be if the developers takes the time to correct errors in the game (patching/improvements/…) then the final product should be the one recognized - esp considering that these versions are free. In the case where they are actually sold as upgrades or new products I might feel differently but effectively what the developers are saying in the common case is that we should have release this as an early release and recognize our mistake and are correcting it with appropriate fixes. While players might be upset that they were used to 'test' the game they do have the option of playing the imrpoved version for free if they wish to do so.
--
On a completely different note I find it how a lot of pathfinder kingmaker lovers hate ds and vice versa (love/hate might be a bit too strong - might simply be prefer or enjoy more - as an example so far I find ds2 a vastly superior game to pathfinder kingmaker but purpleblob feels the exact opposite. Neither of us are right - of course - we merely express our preferences.
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August 30th, 2019, 10:31
Great post, very detailed. I also noticed the "most recent reviews" feature, most notably initially on Shadowrun Honk Kong which quickly caught my eye as being Very Positive overall but it's most recent reviews were at the Mostly Negative category. By that point I'd already noted down everything and I wasn't in the mood to do it all again for Most Recent. I'm exceptionally busy for the next couple of days, so feel free to do that for me in the mean time if you like, I like the sound of that and would be interested in the results.
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August 30th, 2019, 11:28
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
The slight improvement of Dead State comes from the remake, is that the one you remember fondly or was it the original kickstarter release?
It was indeed Resurrection. I did not play the original release. It would not be a game for you, though, as there are a number of base building and survival elements. (One needs to maintain a high morale and enough food for the base)
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August 31st, 2019, 02:28
I don't think aggregate scores tell you much about a game other than how popular it is in a given platform. Individual scores are even more meaningless. Journalists' reviews might as well skip the numbers. I'm not interested in whether Joe Random (whether he works for IGN or is writing on Steam's store page) liked the game or not, but on why. So when something catches my eye I will read what the journalists have to say, then head to Steam and GoG and sift through them for someone with decent writing skills and an opinion more useful than "0/10 terrible game don't buy" or some such.

Now, analyzing games' reception can be fascinating in its own right, so I'm glad this info's been compiled. But I think some put too much stock on the numbers.
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August 31st, 2019, 06:24
Originally Posted by you View Post
On a completely different note I find it how a lot of pathfinder kingmaker lovers hate ds and vice versa (love/hate might be a bit too strong - might simply be prefer or enjoy more - as an example so far I find ds2 a vastly superior game to pathfinder kingmaker but purpleblob feels the exact opposite. Neither of us are right - of course - we merely express our preferences.
I don't know about other Kingmaker fans but I found D:OS2 to be an absolute bore-fest especially upon leaving Fort Joy. I'm currently reinstalling the game to give it another go so we will see.
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September 1st, 2019, 20:54
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
So it's not about facts with you, it's about phycological manipulation of people's emotions? Classy…
Yeah, that's it - psychological manipulation of people's emotions! Listening to other people, trying to figure out why they are saying what they are saying, treating the other person as an equal… Though the more common name is "being polite."
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September 1st, 2019, 21:05
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Yeah, that's it - psychological manipulation of people's emotions! Listening to other people, trying to figure out why they are saying what they are saying, treating the other person as an equal… Though the more common name is "being polite."
Yes, I'm sure it's very polite to 'just listen'. I guess the politeness stops at actually taking on board things like facts and integrity of debate etc. I've no doubt there are some exceptionally polite people in the flat earth society
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September 1st, 2019, 21:06
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
I don't know about other Kingmaker fans but I found D:OS2 to be an absolute bore-fest especially upon leaving Fort Joy. I'm currently reinstalling the game to give it another go so we will see.
Don't panic if it's not your thing. I don't think there's many people who like everything.
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September 2nd, 2019, 02:25
I found both Kingmaker and DOS:2 borefests Both were fun at the very beginning and then much less fun after the initial areas. Kingmaker's throne room was just super tedious.

I mostly read Steam reviews where a person has played for several hours. If all of the reviews are after just a few hours, I assume there isn't much content. It was tougher back before Steam.
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September 2nd, 2019, 02:35
I absolutely adored the first Original Sin offering, but the second in comparison seemed shallow and disappointing. I got through it, but I seriously doubt that I'll ever replay that game.
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September 2nd, 2019, 16:03
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Yes, I'm sure it's very polite to 'just listen'. I guess the politeness stops at actually taking on board things like facts and integrity of debate etc. I've no doubt there are some exceptionally polite people in the flat earth society
I'm not wading through a wall of insults to try and see if you've got any facts hidden behind them, Lackblogger. If you actually had any facts, you would be putting them out front and center. Instead, you're just throwing insults out, which tells me that you've got nothing - or at least nothing that you actually believe in.
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September 2nd, 2019, 16:45
uuuuuh-huh.
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September 3rd, 2019, 23:30
And now it's Gog's turn.

Gog is going to be difficult for comparison due to the fact that Gog has a limited inventory combined with it often only having the various enhanced editions. But since we're at this point I'm sure anyone who's read the thread will be able to discern which are enhanced editions and which are the original release.

Gog uses an out-of-five system rather than an out-of-ten system. One cannot simply double the score to make a direct comparison to Metacritic because that would mean no results would have odd numbers, each point would be marked in steps of 0.2, so I've left the results as out-of-five. This will make it look like all the games have a similar quality, but remember, the difference between 4.5 and 4.6 is a lot wider than 8.5 and 8.6. So 4.5 is a near perfect bunch of happy faces while even just 4.0 leaves plenty of room for unhappy faces and 3.5 is a bit of an amber light warning.

Games are not in batches of 10 this time as there are so many equivalent scores, but just batched in clumps nearest to ten without splitting up equal scores:

4.7 - FTL
4.6 - Divinity Original Sin 2
4.6 - Grim Dawn
4.4 - Divinity Original Sin
4.4 - Hyper Light Drifter
4.4 - Pillars of Eternity
4.3 - Kingdom Come Deliverance
4.3 - Shadowrun Hong Kong
4.3 - Undertale

------------------------

4.2 - Expeditions Conquistador
4.2 - Sunless Skies
4.1 - The Banner Saga
4.1 - The Banner Saga 3
4.1 - Shadowrun Returns
4.1 - Darkest Dungeon
4.1 - The Bard's Tale IV
4.1 - Pillars of Eternity Deadfire
4.0 - Lords of Xulima
4.0 - Serpents in the Staglands

--------------------------

3.9 - Legends of Eisenwald
3.9 - Wasteland 2
3.8 - Sunless Sea
3.7 - Pathfinder Kingmaker
3.7 - BattleTech
3.7 - Hard West
3.6 - Torment Tides of Numenera
3.5 - Dead State

----------------------------

Games not on Gog:

Shroud of the Avatar
Jagged Alliance Flashback
Underworld Ascendant

All of which have scored at the bottom of the list everywhere else anyway.

----------------------------

So the Gog userbase clearly has more love for some titles that don't perform so well on other sites, most notably: Shadowrun Hong Kong, Sunless Skies, Kingdom Come Deliverance and Bard's Tale IV. The only really notable game to sink a bit in popularity for Gog's userbase to any great degree is Undertale, but even this scores well here irrespective of comparative positioning.

And a lot of this will have to do with Gog's userbase being centred on the eastern side of the western world, that being more socially conservative and reactionary to the likes of Undertale and a whole lot more receptive to Kingdom Come.

Next up I'll do a summation of all three comparison charts, assuming I can figure out a fair way to calculate such a process, and, yes, that will probably require me to go back and use the Enhanced Edition scores (or, highest scoring edition excluding deluxe packs) for the Metacritic ratings, which will please all those who would prefer that anyway. Edit: Which turns out to only be a slight increase in Wasteland 2's score from 7.3 to 7.6 for the Director's Cut.
Last edited by lackblogger; September 3rd, 2019 at 23:41.
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September 10th, 2019, 20:09
Originally Posted by forgottenlor View Post
It was indeed Resurrection. I did not play the original release. It would not be a game for you, though, as there are a number of base building and survival elements. (One needs to maintain a high morale and enough food for the base)
I decided to put some effort into finding out what's the deal with Dead State and why it is so staunchly at the bottom of the charts when there does seem to be some very positive people who are so into it. It's a long game, over the 100 hour mark and plenty of people have enjoyed their hourage. So I watched some guy play it for 4 hours on YouTube.

I have to admit, there's something very addicting about the gameplay loop which is very cathartic even though it is, technically, time sensitive and frenetic. You chat with everyone, fiddle with the work board, go out hunting for loot areas, kill a few humanoids, gather loot, go back home and unload, rinse and repeat with just about the right amount of time in each phase so that one is never oversaturated with one type of gameplay at any one sitting.

It is indeed the type of game I could play and enjoy. Well, for a while anyway. It didn't take me long to figure out where the negativity comes from, and it comes from a whole raft of different directions.

Character advancement is uninspired to say the least, a very short rack of main attributes that barely ever gets altered and a slightly longer but still not very long rack of skills that gets increased slightly more often, but not often enough for the rate of progress the match the amount of legwork. A sort of barebones minimum requirement that, even within it's very small scope, seems to have quite a few easily identifiable dump stats.

Enemy variety got old very quickly. There's zombies and there's variations of bandit. And they all pretty much behave the same way. One assumes the combat changes via only two routes, the bandits get better weapons and armour and the zombies come in larger numbers with fewer choke points available to thin them out. This puts the escalation loop more in the realms of an X-Com than an RPG, especially combined with the weak character building. The player I watched kept referring to X-Com as his go-to comparison for many situations and mechanics.

Combat tactics were very repetitive as well as a result. There's only so much tactical variety you can bring to sneaking up behind zombies, to which blunt weapons are always preferable to bladed and guns are great in an emergency. Also, like the player noted, it seems weird how the 'gameyness' required a single zombie be able to land hits on three normal people surrounding it, it makes no realism sense at all and is quite 4th wall breaking when so much of the game is dedicated to a sense of realism. Zombies should only ever be a threat when in large numbers when you do the traditional slow zombie variety. As a result, no combats were ever really satisfying (?) if that's the right word (?).

The UI is very over-complicated with barely any hint as to how to perform very basic functions. I should think most people's first run to walkthroughs is simply finding out how to perform these very basic functions. Everything about the UI feels so janky and unintuitive that it's hard to imagine it's a professional product made by an industry veteran rather than a take-your-pick cheap'n'nasty game from Steam's extensive library of shovelware. Particularly for a game that spent so much time in Alpha.

The bugs came thick and fast, from regular crashes to desktop when transitioning from area to area, all the way to inventory items that didn't even have an icon, just an empty inventory slot with a quantity. Combat would initiate and de-initiate on an almost epileptic level at times, completely destroying any sense of tactical competence. Zombies would spawn out of nothing no matter how carefully you'd cleared an area. Loaded guns would have their bullets vanish into the ether when you put them into your storage crate. Like the guy said, there were new bugs to be discovered approximately every 40 minutes. I've no doubt these reduced or changed a lot for the remake that you played but the sheer quantity of very basic quality of life issues the game had suggested that the developer hadn't even really played their own game.

And from an RPG perspective, it's not really one of those games that one could wholeheartedly say was definitely an RPG. It kinda does the minimum required to get the label and then proceeds to be mostly other genres, both in gameplay and priority. It's much more X-Com than it is RPG and it's much more a Survival Game than it is an RPG, but having a team of characters, some extremely basic level-up stats and the odd quest is indeed just enough for the pedant to say that it's RPG.

I could say a lot more, but the general drift is that it's going to be an ok game for people who want to play a low-effort zombie X-Com and aren't too phased by quality of life gameplay. Much like how Serpents in the Staglands will be an ok game for people who want to play a low-effort Baldur's Gate and aren't too phased by quality of life gameplay. However, Serpents in the Staglands is most undeniably an RPG, it's not anything else and people who buy it as an RPG will be getting exactly what it says on the tin, with Dead State though it's a game which is unsure what it wants to be, tries to take many things from many genres and likely attracts way too many fans of each genre who feel the other genre aspects dilute the part they like too much. I suspect this unfocused development into too many genres also contributed a great deal to so much of the game being disjointed as the developer simply bit off more than they could chew and ended up entangled in a web of conflicting priorities.

For example, from what I've heard @crpgnut say about what he likes, mainly exploration and looting and surviving, this game would probably be right up his alley, though I suspect the combat really turns him off (?) (guessing here). Whereas I'd probably enjoy the exploration and loot and combat but get turned off by the asinine character building, repetitive combat variety and, the big killer for me, having everything timed. I can totally see a very specific kind of player liking it though, maybe even loving it.
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September 10th, 2019, 21:26
Its been awhile since I played it (about 3 years I think), so I am going from memory here. I remember a lot of exploration, and occasional combat. On most maps you try to avoid combat as much as possible, but on most maps you will want to kill at least some zombies to get to some areas. The challenge is not to make so much noise as you get swarmed.
As far as being an rpg, yes character development is fairly shallow, it reminded me somewhat of Wasteland 2. You have a fairly limited number of skills, but on the other had you never get enough points to be good at everything, so you have to make meaningful choices. The other things is you run into a number of npcs, who are actually faily well fleshed out. Dead State may borrow some things from X-Com, but in terms of story and characters, there is simply no comparison. In Dead State npc interactions are along that of a standard crpg. You do have non-rpg elements like base building, and you have some survival elements, so if those detract from it being an rpg, then that might be the case. On the other hand of the 3 (so called) zombie rpgs I have tried (Dead State, State of Decay, and Dead Island) it is the one in my opinion that is most clearly an rpg, and the one I enjoyed the most. (Though Dead Island is a fine Boarderlands like action game with rpg elements, if you enjoy that sort of thing.)
I don't remember any bugs. The big thing that I did not like is that at some point you've explored every location on the map, but the game still drags on, because the multiple endings require (a lot of) additional time to occur. That was after about 50 hours for me, and at that point the game felt pointless.
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September 11th, 2019, 02:05
Dead State has lots of great ideas and the game looks awesome on the surface.

However, all the mechanics are kind of broken. They are broken in itself, and they don't work with each other.

So I guess if you bring a lot of fantasy with you, like let's say you make an epic RPG adventure out of the Sims, by really thinking a lot into each character and action, then yeah, sure. But as soon as you try to use it's mechanics in some meaningful way it all breaks apart. Plus: It's extremely unpolished with massive performance issues even after their final patch.
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September 11th, 2019, 02:15
Here's my review as German Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdNJKjRWw1M

And an automatic translation via google of my script.
Spoiler
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Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Pathway
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
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October 6th, 2019, 14:55
Shadowrun Dragonfall is a Kickstarter RPG, for metracritics (didn't knew it was still a reference, not for me since long, too many manipulations here),
User Score 8.3 on 247 Ratings

It puts it rank 8 in OP list.

I have no problem with Kickstarting, only one I pledged disappointed me, plus one I can't find the will to start play. I bought also a few not that good, but the positive is overwhelming and no way indie or main industry could have provided some of them, even less the same amount in their sub genre.
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RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » List of Kickstarter RPGs Top 30 Ranked
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