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February 18th, 2020, 01:26
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
I don't even know why devs use those rules. I guess it's because they come with the already established fan base?
One reason is that you get an ruleset that is quite balanced. Despite having to adapt the rules to a computer game the basics principles still work.
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February 18th, 2020, 01:30
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
What does all this have to do with the difference in difficulty of targeting between RTwP and TB?
Nothing and everything… As targeting with Aoe is completely effortless In both systems… But one is simplified and broken down, the other is not. Rtwp gives you the freedom, Turn base takes that freedom away. Just so you get a sense of order and more accurate information that comes with it.
The turn-based system makes the game even more artificial and breaks the illusion of realism with its restrictions, especially movement…
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February 18th, 2020, 01:38
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
One reason is that you get a ruleset that is quite balanced. Despite having to adapt the rules to a computer game the basics principles still work.
yeah, you're right it's tested, proven worthy. Experimenting comes with its risks. PoE Deadfire comes to mind as an example.
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February 18th, 2020, 08:13
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
One reason is that you get an ruleset that is quite balanced. Despite having to adapt the rules to a computer game the basics principles still work.
One strong, deep characteristic of this site is a relentless disdain, hatred for anything gameplay related.

Balance is achieved against parametres. Parametres involved in UgoIgo and RTwP are fundamentally different.

RTwP stresses the relationship between time and space in a way UgoIgo struggles to achieve (even though so called UgoIgo cRPGs take the ice compared to tabletop games etc)

Usually, in these cRPGs, movement goes unhindered, it is certain.
In RTwP, speed, acceleration are involved, movement is a factor of uncertainty as it may be slowed down or stopped.

And, in this regard, these cRPGs take the ice. In tabletop gaming, the issue of pre measuring matters. Players might know for sure how much a character might move but they are not allowed to pre measure. Or they may be allowed to pre measure but character movement is uncertain (base distance plus random distance)

It is not possible to balance when a parametre is essential in one case and not in another case. It does not happen.

Taking XCOM/PP as an example: They are balanced around AoE grenade launcher thing.

Weapons are fully precise and the shell travels instaneously. Movement is banned from the equation. Visual cues are unnecessary.

In RTwP, they are imprecise and generally, the grenade travels slowly. Information is carried through visual cues. Between the moment they are fired and the moment of the impact, the battlefield configuration might have changed inbetween. It takes the use of tactics to ensure their efficiency.

It is not possible to balance in RTwP as in UgoIgo.

Back to the cRPG thing because quite often, in table thing, those weapons scatter, they are imprecise even though UgoIgo usually struggles to translate a possible evasion before impact.

RTwP and UgoIgo operate on fundamentally different approaches. It is not possible to conciliate an approach that makes movement central and an approach that makes movement accessory.
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February 18th, 2020, 13:18
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
Nothing and everything… As targeting with Aoe is completely effortless In both systems… But one is simplified and broken down, the other is not. Rtwp gives you the freedom, Turn base takes that freedom away. Just so you get a sense of order and more accurate information that comes with it.
The turn-based system makes the game even more artificial and breaks the illusion of realism with its restrictions, especially movement…
I disagree that both are effortless. AoE targeting in RTwP can get really confusing with a lot of going on. I'll use PoE as an example once again. You have six characters to watch over and position them to avoid friendly fire. You can't just freely move them since there are penalties for combat disengagement. Then you have to factor in the movement of the enemies and predict where they on the battlefield they will be when you cast the spell. It takes a few seconds to cast the spell so you can't target their current location. Add to that a lot of visual effects (fire, magic particles, etc.) and the screen can get really cluttered. The way PoE combats this is by having an option to slow down time in battles. Sure, you can learn how to factor all of that in in your targeting, and it's not that hard, but it is a skill some people don't have and don't want to learn.

In TB combat you don't have that many things to factor in. Only party positioning matters and it's usually done before combat and in the first few rounds.

The rest of your comment I'll disregard since it's not relevant. I'll just say that I agree that real time combat is more realistic and adds more tactical options to combat. I like both and play what I feel like playing at that time. And to get on topic, I really like that you'll be able to switch the type of combat at any point in this game.
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February 18th, 2020, 14:02
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
So THAT's what you're referring to.
The point has been made for years now.
That is however not the common use of the term Turn based…
Contrary to this site claim, UgoIgo is not a made up claim. What is common is also uncommon, at least for gamers, players who are interested in gameplay.

Making turn based a product that is already turn based makes sense for superior minded people.

Simple minded people struggle with the mental gymnastics and therefore are confined with making a turn based product UgoIgo.

Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
yeah, you're right it's tested, proven worthy. Experimenting comes with its risks. PoE Deadfire comes to mind as an example.
PoE is an example.

UgoIgo and RTwP approaches are different. RTwP requires to plan ahead before jumping in action whereas UgoIgo allows to plan as it unfolds.

Testing a product demands it to be tested under conditions.

A RTwP product demands to be tested in RTwP or distorsion happens.

PoE was assessed when being played PwRT which does not allow an evaluation of balance.

RTwP puts an emphasis on reliability, speed etc
Planning ahead relies on a high degree of reliability, things must happen.

UgoIgo allows a low degree of reliability, especially as UgoIgo products are designed that way.

Missing a hit may be disastrous in RTwP as it might ruin a full pre planned sequence.
Missing in UgoIgo is much less as the miss may be factored directly in the incoming plan.

PoE builds were directed toward improved reliability. Which is pointless when being played UgoIgo.

Missing a 75pc hit is dangerous in RTwP hence the necessity to move toward 100pc. Missing it in UgoIgo is just a possible outcome that does not jeopardize the rest of a pre planned sequence.
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February 18th, 2020, 14:08
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
Sure, you can learn how to factor all of that in in your targeting, and it's not that hard, but it is a skill some people don't have and don't want to learn.
Obviously too hard since UgoIgo players do not acquire the skill. With the result of not having an offer in RTwP party based products.

UgoIgo had to suppress RTwP or UgoIgo players would have felt insecure.
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February 18th, 2020, 15:54
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Balance is achieved against parametres. Parametres involved in UgoIgo and RTwP are fundamentally different.
What balance are you talking about? I have never seen in my 30 years of playing any balance.
Can you give me an example of a game with a story which is by your standards balanced for experienced player minimax and not even a hardcore one at that… Where do you see the balance? I really want to know…

AND for the love of God can someone explain the difference between Ugoigo vs Turn-based. Or at list give me some examples of Ugoigo and some Turn-based games that aren't Ugoigo… Because I get a feeling was sucked into hell limbo where not only there is Turn-based vs RTwp but now there is the third evil and it's called Ugoigo!
and I tried the search and nothing relevant popped on. Thank you…
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February 18th, 2020, 16:07
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Obviously too hard since UgoIgo players do not acquire the skill. With the result of not having an offer in RTwP party based products.

UgoIgo had to suppress RTwP or UgoIgo players would have felt insecure.
Utter nonsense. There are plenty of people who enjoy both, I suspect a lot more people do than people who refuse to play one over or the other. I'm pretty sure there are more people who own both RTwP products and turn based (Ugoigo) products than there are people who exclusively buy either. Note that unlike you I don't claim my opinion is a fact, so I'll settle for that.

Reading forums like this one or Steam or Codex forums even more so one might get the impression that isn't the case, but that's because (I think) the people who have extremely strong feelings towards one combat system will be much more likely to post their praise and/or rage. Most of us are fine either way and will just roll our eyes when the discussion over which system is superior gets heated.
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February 18th, 2020, 16:16
@Dolby, the common definition is exactly the one you're using. Chien has his own ideas on what is proper and will therefore call what you or I would call turn based UGOIGO. The point being that any game can be turn or round based within a real time system. An example would be Baldurs Gate, where every round is 6 seconds, and all characters can perform a specific number of tasks each round. You can't mash a button to make your fighter hit faster, he'll still perform his set number of attacks per round. Hence the system is in fact "Turn based".

Personally I would refer to that system as a real time system with rounds as opposed to a real time system with action combat (where you can in fact mash the buttons…). And a Turn based system (to me) is a system where your opponent doesn't move when you do.
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February 18th, 2020, 16:59
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
Utter nonsense. There are plenty of people who enjoy both, I suspect a lot more people do than people who refuse to play one over or the other. I'm pretty sure there are more people who own both RTwP products and turn based (Ugoigo) products than there are people who exclusively buy either. Note that unlike you I don't claim my opinion is a fact, so I'll settle for that.

Reading forums like this one or Steam or Codex forums even more so one might get the impression that isn't the case, but that's because (I think) the people who have extremely strong feelings towards one combat system will be much more likely to post their praise and/or rage. Most of us are fine either way and will just roll our eyes when the discussion over which system is superior gets heated.
Thank you. I wanted to reply the same thing, but quit writing the comment half way through. I just can't argue with Chien over stupid stuff like that.
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February 18th, 2020, 17:57
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
I disagree that both are effortless. AoE targeting in RTwP can get really confusing with a lot of going on. I'll use PoE as an example once again. You have six characters to watch over and position them to avoid friendly fire. You can't just freely move them since there are penalties for combat disengagement. Then you have to factor in the movement of the enemies and predict where they on the battlefield they will be when you cast the spell. It takes a few seconds to cast the spell so you can't target their current location. Add to that a lot of visual effects (fire, magic particles, etc.) and the screen can get really cluttered. The way PoE combats this is by having an option to slow down time in battles. Sure, you can learn how to factor all of that in in your targeting, and it's not that hard, but it is a skill some people don't have and don't want to learn.

In TB combat you don't have that many things to factor in. Only party positioning matters and it's usually done before combat and in the first few rounds.

The rest of your comment I'll disregard since it's not relevant. I'll just say that I agree that real-time combat is more realistic and adds more tactical options to combat. I like both and play what I feel like playing at that time. And to get on topic, I really like that you'll be able to switch the type of combat at any point in this game.
Well, Poe deadfire who had the slow you are referring to.
In my opinion, that game had huge problems with the story and more so with it setting the vast majority of islands just felt empty a gimmick at best. Josh Sawyer's idea was just game-breaking as sales showed that. if you ask me it wasn't the combat.
Even if you called it cluttered which I have no problem with… Peo 2 would be great if it had a more of a mercenary dark classic medieval vibe even more so as Poe had.
And they could always slow the animations and stayed away from slow-motion it worked fine in PoE one. Even so, yes the slow-motion worked I guess.
Anyway, I never had any problems hitting stuff, especially in RTwp. So I could argue that Tb is harder for AOE targeting and if my GF can hit stuff in DA anyone can. The only problem I had was due to the range and that was in Turn-based games. Movement per turn btw is the most annoying and immersion-breaking thing ever put in a video game. Truly it's the one thing I hate about TB games.

Did you ever get into a position in a turn-based game where you couldn't hit something with a spell because it was ONE, OnE freaking tile away, so this character was like actually doing nothing for that turn!?! I was always like WTF, deep inside peace of me just died.
The melee is even more ridiculous!!
The enemy is right there you can spit into his face. BUT, NOOO!
For some artificial reason, he can't hit him with a sword…
So now he's just stuck there, doing nothing! All hell breaks loose around him but he-she does nothing!?!? Broken game! End of the story rage quit!)

Ok, I didn't rage quit! SO, I`ll use the all-mighty option they gave me, buff my ass, Or even better I'll use THe OVERwatch. Ha, what a joke that is. So the next turn. The OVERwatch thing goes off after all the other guy needs to move ONE tile to smack my guy even though he's right there! Spitting distance…
Now the fun part! IT didn't hit!! ARRGGG
They both miss, like literally they hit the air, gotta love RNG.
Yey, NOw it's my turn again!! Surely he can hit him now! He's buffed up or he trained beforehand with overwatch 90% hit chance this should work…
Guess what, IT Didn't so we spend 3 turns doing nothing talk about wasted 3 minutes of my life wherein an RTwp it would be done in 10 secs.
And to top it off, most of the Turn-based games don't use parry animations or armor hits. They just hit air or more commonly animations go through the 3D mesh like it was a hit even if no damage was applied…
At this point, if the story isn't good I normally just quit and go complain to my GF how devs don't know shit about game making and how my Rpg would be epic and we geek out about stuff, oh the good times. And yes we both play TB and Rtwp. YOu have to, the cRPGs are just too few not to. Again, I welcome this idea, it's great…
Last edited by Dolby; February 18th, 2020 at 18:23.
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February 18th, 2020, 18:14
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
[MENTION=33070]
Personally I would refer to that system as a real time system with rounds as opposed to a real time system with action combat (where you can in fact mash the buttons…). And a Turn based system (to me) is a system where your opponent doesn't move when you do.
Most RTwp CRPGs are like that, no? I see a Round as just an animation… of whatever you're doing… Easier to make, after all, you can't control more than one character at any given time. And button mashing without this system can lead to stun locking enemies and that's just bad… Gothic had that problem…
Last edited by Dolby; February 18th, 2020 at 18:33.
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February 18th, 2020, 18:14
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
I read your whole comment and I agree. You are listing some shortcomings of the TB combat, but someone can interpret those as the challenges. You're one square shy of being able to hit the enemy? Tough luck, try to factor in the movement range into your strategy. Your party members are missing 90% of their overwatch shots? Invest in reflexes/accuracy/whatever the corresponding skill is.

But you still haven't addressed my point that AoE targeting in RT is inherently harder than TB due to more things you need to factor in (apart from the anecdote how you and your GF don't have problems with it, which is just that, anecdote).
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February 18th, 2020, 19:37
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
I read your whole comment and I agree. You are listing some shortcomings of the TB combat, but someone can interpret those as the challenges. You're one square shy of being able to hit the enemy? Tough luck, try to factor in the movement range into your strategy. Your party members are missing 90% of their overwatch shots? Invest in reflexes/accuracy/whatever the corresponding skill is.

But you still haven't addressed my point that AoE targeting in RT is inherently harder than TB due to more things you need to factor in (apart from the anecdote how you and your GF don't have problems with it, which is just that, anecdote).
It's easier because you can fix the position, adapt at any given time. You can improvise move for a 1/2 of a tile or less. You can do it at any time, pause at any time 100 times if you want … You're not bound by rules of TB. More freedom theoretically means more accurate fireballs. The only limitation is your skill as a player. In Tb, you have others that actively make aiming harder… One of them is the one tile thing that I was raging about before. In my opinion, it makes the game artificially harder because of the rules of a system and not the engagement - the fight itself…
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February 18th, 2020, 19:52
Coming up 1 square short is not solely a TB thing. It happens in RTWP as well, You just don’t notice it because you go right in to the next round. Set BG to pause at the end of each round and you will have characters that just move and don’t make it to attack.

No one has mentioned my biggest RTWP frustration, so maybe it’s just me but…

Spacing, Most encounters end up in just a cluster of characters beating on each other. Even if you turn off companion AI ( it’s a little better) you will still get lured to help other characters and all end up in the same spot.

For instance, you’ll have a couple tanks upfront trying to hold the line with a support cleric, a mage or 2 in the back and a thief circling for backstabs. As much as you try to keep spacing it usually falls apart. Enemies will target the companions causing the most damage which ends up being a mage or thief. So they will break engagement taking the AOO and head for said mage or thief. This typically results in 1 dead mage or thief as you cant heal them, get them out of they way or protect them with fighters in time. Also once everyone is clustered together it makes your spell casters useless as you cant avoid hitting your companions. So your stuck with debuff, buff or single target spells like Magic missile. This is especially problematic when your forced to fight in a small room or hallway. The Maerwald encounter in POE is a good example. Fortunately it was easy enough to just steam roll him but again there’s no spacing.

Being able to better maintain spacing is the reason I prefer TB but I don’t dislike RTWP and have no problem playing it. Of course I also enjoy just straight up realtime combat as well. If the combats fun I can get behind most anything as they all will have little annoying quirks.
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February 18th, 2020, 19:56
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
It's easier because you can fix the position, adapt at any given time. You can improvise move for a 1/2 of a tile or less. You can do it at any time, pause at any time 100 times if you want … You're not bound by rules of TB. More freedom theoretically means more accurate fireballs. The only limitation is your skill as a player. In Tb, you have others that actively make aiming harder… One of them is the one tile thing that I was raging about before. In my opinion, it makes the game artificially harder because of the rules of a system and not the engagement - the fight itself…
None of that has anything to do with the act of targeting. AoE targeting in TB games is like shooting a stationary target; AoE targeting in RTwP games is like shooting a moving target with a delay between when you pull the trigger and when the weapon fires. The first thing is easier.
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February 18th, 2020, 21:01
Utter flashes of brilliance going on.
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
… Chien has his own ideas on what is proper and will therefore call what you or I would call turn based UGOIGO… Hence the system is in fact "Turn based".

Personally I would refer to that system as a real time system with rounds as opposed to a real time system with action combat.
Basically, calling a turn based game turn based is having one's ideas about what is proper whereas crafting an expression is being in the common.

Massive result of two centuries of institutionalized double standards. Which usually ends the same:inversion.

BG is a turn based RTwP game. It is not UgoIgo.

And a Turn based system (to me) is a system where your opponent doesn't move when you do.
The trick of reducing turn based to UgoIgo. A game can play with opponents planning their turn and the turn unfolding simultaneously.

Turn based is a vast category. A bit like human beings. It is known that in the american system thinking that certain human beings are in fact human beings is having one's own mind about what is proper.
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February 18th, 2020, 21:03
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
Thank you. I wanted to reply the same thing, but quit writing the comment half way through. I just can't argue with Chien over stupid stuff like that.
The expectations should be on stupid stuff. Brilliance is left to others, the army of light.
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February 18th, 2020, 21:07
I agree with many of the pros and cons mentioned in both systems. I still like both. Never thought about the problems Dolby mentions regarding being one square short though. And hit chances are the same in either system usually.
@Dolby, I found PoE2 superior to the first one, mainly because the fist one was too dark and medieval. Different tastes I guess. I do agree on the empty islands though. And if I compare the combat in PoE to PF:KM I find Pathfinder much less chaotic. One reason for that is probably my familiarity with the DnD system, and how easy it is for me to visualise dice compared to a random number between 1-100 like PoE has. Guess that's a reason as well as any too use a system like that which you were discussing earlier?
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