Why do people that ?

If that person can't be helped in any way, why should that person have to live a life she/he is convinced to be unbearable? How does one balance the pain of that person against the pain of those left behind? Why is one more important than the other?

No answers for you, my friend other than my experience of what happens afterwards.

Skavenhorde, I know nothing about the people you mentioned, so I feel in no position to form an opinion about them. Your post is however about how much it hurts you, not about how much the friend you are missing now was hurt by staying alive. It seems arrogant to me that you value your pain higher than hers.

Your right, maybe I'm envious (No sarcasm in that answer just flat out truth). She got out and I'm still here. She left us to deal with this life alone or I should say, she left me. There is a lot more to the story with my friend but I think two huge emotionally charged posts a day is enough.

I firmly belief that anyone is entitled to decide if they want to stay alive or not. I do think it should be a last resort, but when it comes down to it, it is their choice to make and nobody else.

If you care nothing about your loved ones then yea I can see your point. If you care anything about them then you try to make it work. With their help you persevere and as they say roll with the punches. There are of course extreme exceptions like you're in so much physical pain that life is just one agonizing moment to the next. I won't go into all of the different kinds of psychological pain because like you said how do you measure one pain against the other.
 
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Skav, i understand very well what you're going through. My second husband spent his whole life killing himself with drugs and alcohol(dead at 46) because this world was just too hard for him to live in. For many years I had only great anger and contempt for him leaving me to deal with everything. It's only recently (20 years almost later) that I am able to see that it really WAS too hard for him--he just couldn't deal with it. He did try several times to quit drinking, but like your father, that was pointless since the underlying reason--despair--was never dealt with. He had that response to life, and what good does it do to say he should have toughed it out? At his funeral, his brother said he had told him not to feel sorry for him, that he'd lived the life he chose of his own free will and accepted the consequences.

Then, a few years ago, my very troubled young stepson blew his brains out. My husband had to see him lying dead on the grass in the back yard. He was 14. However, my husband is a much better person than I am, and never blamed him. He's only said over the years "He did what he thought was right. It was his call."

I know right now it's hard for you to forgive these people in your life who've left you to deal with the pain, but if you loved them, you will eventually be able to see that they perhaps did not have the clearcut choice you presently think they did. I think that as well as just wanting out of their difficulties and personal pain, both my second husband and my stepson felt that their messed-up lives were bringing more pain to others than their deaths ever would.

Anyway, hang in there. You're entitled to your feelings in the matter, and like the rest of us, will have to work through them to understand both yourself and others. :)
 
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Skav, i understand very well what you're going through. My second husband spent his whole life killing himself with drugs and alcohol(dead at 46) because this world was just too hard for him to live in. For many years I had only great anger and contempt for him leaving me to deal with everything. It's only recently (20 years almost later) that I am able to see that it really WAS too hard for him--he just couldn't deal with it. He did try several times to quit drinking, but like your father, that was pointless since the underlying reason--despair--was never dealt with. He had that response to life, and what good does it do to say he should have toughed it out? At his funeral, his brother said he had told him not to feel sorry for him, that he'd lived the life he chose of his own free will and accepted the consequences.

Then, a few years ago, my very troubled young stepson blew his brains out. My husband had to see him lying dead on the grass in the back yard. He was 14. However, my husband is a much better person than I am, and never blamed him. He's only said over the years "He did what he thought was right. It was his call."

I know right now it's hard for you to forgive these people in your life who've left you to deal with the pain, but if you loved them, you will eventually be able to see that they perhaps did not have the clearcut choice you presently think they did. I think that as well as just wanting out of their difficulties and personal pain, both my second husband and my stepson felt that their messed-up lives were bringing more pain to others than their deaths ever would.

Anyway, hang in there. You're entitled to your feelings in the matter, and like the rest of us, will have to work through them to understand both yourself and others. :)

Thanks mag... I know I couldn't be the only here who's had some loved ones kill themselves. This might sound awful (I'm beginning to get know for bringing up awful stuff now :)) But the way I deal with everything in my life including that, is by thinking that somewhere someone has it a lot worse than I do. Sounds crass but all I have to do is turn on the television and there it is tens of thousands of people in much worse situations than I can ever imagine. Then my problems don't seem so big anymore.

I still think that suicide is one of the most evil acts anyone can do still and I'm sorry about your stepson and husband. I don't know the situation or anything, So I'll save the "couldn't they be helped?" topic.

Thanks for sharing and listening to my, I guess, arrogant ramblings. I do go over the top a lot but with something this personal I can't help only tell the story from my point of view. The people that could of defended their reasons have left this world. It's not often that I get to add to a discussions because 5 times out of ten, I have no idea what is being talked about or don't really have anything new or interesting to add to the thread. But this one, WOW, this one I knew all too well and why wasn't anyone asking the question, Why did she have to do it? Anyways, just wanted to say thanks and hope you guys understand a little of what it's like when people kill themselves. It either over quick for the person doing it but the scars run deep in the ones around you or it drags on for years and years and it drags your loved one down with you.

So that's my little say in this matter. Take what you will. Think I'm an idiot or cruel or (god forbid) a Nazi scum or someone who just lived though two of these messes and still wants to know why they did that to us. If it is arrogant to think about who will be living after the event then I'm King Top Cat from the Pompous castle near neuritic lane.
 
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There are three words of philosophy that basically make up my life view: perspective is reality. Our brains are machines that run the software that is installed on them. Many people have been somehow able to get software corruption; to them, reality looks thoroughly different than yours. I don't believe the first logical thing is to rationalize suicide as "they took the easy way out." I believe it goes more like this "they did what they thought was best for everyone." In many cases, that will be the last thought going through their minds before they pull the trigger or swallow their pills.

I've also had people in my life with anxiety problems. They explained to me how they sometimes felt when it was worst. I can't put it into words, especially, since it has been a while ago, but mostly these people would sleep all day during such a period of time, after having taken some serious tranquilizers.

You talk about not giving up and putting up a fight-- both very valid things to say. I personally believe, though, that the people fighting this fight can be extremely in the disadvantage, as they simply do not have the mental toolset to cope. When things are so bad that you experience extreme physical discomfort because of your mental problems, something is seriously wrong with you.

I don't think anyone wants to hurt their loved ones. One day, however, they may wake up and decide it would be the right thing to just do it and allow them live without all their bullshit.

But the way I deal with everything in my life including that, is by thinking that somewhere someone has it a lot worse than I do.

That's funny (well, actually, sad) because someone I knew suffering from anxiety used to say that. Then she'd feel even worse because she felt she had no right to complain since her life wasn't so bad in comparison. She once told me how she sat in the emergency room after taking an overdose of pills. Ashamed, because she was surrounded by people with legitimate reasons to be there. She just did it to herself. More negative feelings towards herself.

The way we mentally respond to situations is hard-wired into our brains after years of behavioral training by nurturing, education, society, etc. It's hard to break away from, especially if they are this powerful.
 
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I still think that suicide is one of the most evil acts anyone can do still and I'm sorry about your stepson and husband. I don't know the situation or anything, So I'll save the "couldn't they be helped?" topic.

That's really the question, isn't it? Both had access to help--shrinks, medication, supportive loving people--but apparently, no, they "couldn't be helped." And so, at least they are no longer suffering. I try to see it that way now. :)

@Thaurin: Good post--you express it well.
 
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There are three words of philosophy that basically make up my life view: perspective is reality. Our brains are machines that run the software that is installed on them. Many people have been somehow able to get software corruption; to them, reality looks thoroughly different than yours. I don't believe the first logical thing is to rationalize suicide as "they took the easy way out." I believe it goes more like this "they did what they thought was best for everyone." In many cases, that will be the last thought going through their minds before they pull the trigger or swallow their pills.

I've also had people in my life with anxiety problems. They explained to me how they sometimes felt when it was worst. I can't put it into words, especially, since it has been a while ago, but mostly these people would sleep all day during such a period of time, after having taken some serious tranquilizers.

You talk about not giving up and putting up a fight-- both very valid things to say. I personally believe, though, that the people fighting this fight can be extremely in the disadvantage, as they simply do not have the mental toolset to cope. When things are so bad that you experience extreme physical discomfort because of your mental problems, something is seriously wrong with you.

I don't think anyone wants to hurt their loved ones. One day, however, they may wake up and decide it would be the right thing to just do it and allow them live without all their bullshit.

All well thought out and all extreme cases. It would be nice to load up a save game or well more like start a new game. You know like in the sims. You say, Hey I don't like this character or where he is headed, so lets delete him and start a brand spanking new sims game. Sorry doesn't work like that. We don't know what comes next.

As for the medical explanations, I can understand extreme situations, but not normal livable ones. The reason I'm so harsh on this, is that I have depression, ADD, and some sort attacks with anxiety that I have this overwhelming urge to say something, anything. Most likely I say "I want to die" or "go home" but sometimes I just give a short scream. I did this after the previous two posts because I thought I was being stupid again and couldn't deal with it. My mom thinks it's a mild case of Tourette's syndrome. It makes life hard in any case because I'm always bashing myself over the head for every little mistake and yes it would be a lot easier to decide, you know enough is enough, See Ya Cruel World. But do I do that? Nope, why, because somedays life is really beautiful. I just have to keep trying to find the beauty in life instead of the rotten stench of it . Anyways, being arrogant again I have to say that most medical conditions are livable if you want. If you don't want to take the easy way out you don't have to. lol more pearls of wisdom from your resident crazy rat.

That's funny (well, actually, sad) because someone I knew suffering from anxiety used to say that. Then she'd feel even worse because she felt she had no right to complain since her life wasn't so bad in comparison. She once told me how she sat in the emergency room after taking an overdose of pills. Ashamed, because she was surrounded by people with legitimate reasons to be there. She just did it to herself. More negative feelings towards herself.

Funny you posted this before I finished writing mine. In any case, yes I know I have some sort of anxiety problem but not much can be done about it, I guess . I don't feel negative afterwards though. It's just a fact. However I feel stupid for worrying about stupid little problems when other people have bigger ones.
 
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Suicide is one of those oft-philosophized concepts. Some feel that it is one's unalienable right to take one's own life. If you don't even own your own life, of what worth is it? That said, I think the people that rationally decide to take their own lives based on careful consideration of all factors are in the vast minority. That is the thing to remember, I think.

So I admire how you handle your situation. I can in some lesser measure even relate to it, because too often I also think back about something stupid I said or did. It can be hell when you don't fully accept yourself for who you are. Because if you don't love yourself, what purpose is there in life? To hell with other people, I say! I as a human being have the right to be stupid, to embarrass myself and to make mistakes I cannot undo! In the end, all that matters is my own reality. Hopefully that includes a happy reality for the people in it, too.
 
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Now that I've fully embarrassed myself once again, I think I'll take a step back and just add this one thought before going back to talking about silly stuff like the state of the PC market or the latest on U6 project.

I don't really understand how anyone can justify suicide, except for the extreme situations. I'm talking about a normal, everyday, person that might have some problems but can function in society, not anyone with much deeper problems. I was a little surprised by how many people seemed to justify suicide. I don't know, maybe I really am arrogant or selfish, but to me it just seems to horrible to do to yourself, your family, your friends, anyone who has cared for you. But that's just my opinion.

@Thaurin Thanks, I try.

That's it, no more deep emo stuff. I'm going back to playing Gothic, there you don't have to worry about saying somthing stupid or doing something wrong, you can just reload ;p
 
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No need for worry at all. I for one haven't seen you post a single stupid thing in this topic and have appreciated your view on this matter.

Go on then, go play your Gothic. :)
 
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Why do people that ?

I just read that in Alice Springs a 7-year old boy broke into the zoo and killed several animals - some of them by pushing them into the area, where a crocodile lives. Which of course eat them. Others were killed by him with a stone. The report says that it looks as if this had been some kind of "game" to him.
 
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Normally I don't feel old enough, lived enough to go in deep in this kind of topics.
But Skav I can understand your point of view completely. or almost. I never had any one close too me, commit suicide.
But I have been on the other side of the knive: wanted to commit it.
The first time the only thing that stopped me was the thought of 2 real good friends of mine, that I never would have any fun with them anymore and that I would hurt them.
The secodn time it was just the same thought about suicide as you think: Suicide is the easy way. I had to stand up and fight for myself. I was to stubborn to let my problems win and take the easy way out.

But I would understand people who have a serious disease and commit suicide. I would do the same for 2 reasons: So I don't have to become a pile of flesh that only suffers and can't do anything else on his own.
The other reasons was that I didn't want to put my family friends through that seeing me like a bag of ...., I would rather have them remeber me as the guy I am.

You know skav, it won't help you but when reading your "rant", it really touched me because I had an idea of the feelings you have and also the feelings of the others.
 
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I think there is still a stigma attached to depression and mental illnesses such as bi-polar disorder. Some people think suffers are "weirdos" or just can't cope. A lot of people don't get help because they don't want to be seen as weak or a "nutcase".
I think the problems arising such as this teenage girl feeling no option other than suicide is largely the law cannot keep up with technology, people are feeling less attached to other people (parent's working longer hours, increased violence and teenage drinking) and some people don't feel they have someone they can genuinely talk to in confidence, without judgment and without gossip spreading about them. I have been burned when I have trusted people before, and now I just don't talk to a lot of people- it's easier than having gossip in the office, or someone judging you and making you feel worse. I remember being in a very bad place because of a really shitty thing that happened and not being able to cope and being told I was just tired or I was overreacting and being a drama queen, or other people have it worse so suck it up when I did open up to a few family members. My parter tried to be supportive but couldn't see why I was so upset and thought since I had him and I can trust him that everything is ok. I eventually went to a "professional" who made things worse by telling me "you were just the weakest in the herd and it's natural that you would be preyed on because you were gullible and easy prey". No one wants to feel alone, no one wants to feel abandoned, no one wants to have to bottle everything up and no one wants to be betrayed. While I think suicide is terrible and the people left suffer I can understand someone thinking it would all be over and the people left behind would be better off when they have been pushed too far. Some people are just nasty people who think they have the right to do whatever they want without consequences, resulting in road rage and people like this horrible oxygen thief gaining the trust of a teenage girl and then gutting her completely and leaving her feeling empty, betrayed and unable to cope. Being a teenager is hard enough without adults playing games and using such cruel tactics to get back at some perceived slight.
I really feel sorry for the teenage girl, and I feel sorry for her parents- they will always blame themselves and look back for warning signs and things they could have done better- whether real or imagined, they will have a solution to the problem in their head that would have kept their daughter alive. Hindsight is fantastic, unfortunately, bad things happen, sometimes there is no reason, sometimes they can't be understood and sometimes they just leave you thinking this was such a waste of the life of a teenager and such a terrible thing for friends and family to have to exist through because they will never be able to come to terms with it.
 
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This has been a hard thread to absorb. Hard because of the pain it discusses. Depression is an illness that works to keep you that way. It colors your view of the world and of yourself with feelings of being useless, helpless and hopeless. If there is no feeling of anything being able to help you, you don't bother to go get help.
You feel you are of no worth to your friends or family and if anything you are a source of pain to them, so you avoid them. It is like sitting in a pit with a bag over your head and your hands are tied. Not much you could do to get out. The sad thing is it makes us hide those dark feelings, because it makes us feel disconnected. This disconnection makes us feel abnormal, something you never want to be, and never want anyone to see you as.

What is bad is that these are symptoms of an illness, not what you are. The very symptoms prevent most people from getting help. And the abnormal feelings make people not talk about it and realize we have all had those feeling in some degree at some point in life.

If I told you you had a broken leg, you would say OK, fix it. But let someone tell you you have depression and you say, no way! Social stigma is a big reason for this, but it is also part of the illness. That, "I am not normal, so nothing can help", symptom of depression plays a part in not getting the right help. Many people are not honest with their doctors or family or friends when they do admit to needing help. That leads to the wrong help or not enough of whatever. And the whirlpool that is slowly leading to that bottomless pit just keeps spinning.

Anyway, I have rambled on enough. Hoping I have shed a different take on a disease that does so much damage.
 
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To Cm: Well put and to the point. After being in and out of clinical depressions (probably never directly suicidal, but certainly self destructive) for more than 30 years, I'm familiar with all you said: the pain, the hopelessness and maybe above all the feeling that you don't mean anything to those around you.

Thank you.
 
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In my personal experience, my depressions slowly went away when I began practising "Reiki". Because of this experience, I'm recommenting it (but beware of non-serious people dealing with it !), although I must say that during the practising or/and using of it, an ill person should be monitored, too, to avoid any problemse.
 
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Treating depression is as complex as we are individual. The key is to realize you don't have to feel this way, you are not alone, and find whatever it is that will help you.
 
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Suffering is the condition of human life. Everyone we know will die someday, some before us some after, but losing someone to suicide is probably the most painful. I think that is true since other forms of death seem unavoidable, death by accident, disease, etc... We can eventually come to to terms with death from unavoidable causes, but not suicide, since it seems that it is a personal choice, but we must go on, trying to remember the good things that person did while they were alive, and not dwelling on the tragedy of their death, and how it affected us. Somehow though we must forgive those that have chosen to end their own lives.

Not sure if that helps, but I felt I should try.
 
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Well put, cm.

This is the key - and this is the reason why I'm active in the HSP community.

People just have to realioze that they are not alone with their problems and fears; there are many more like them. This is relief enough - and then comes the actual help ...
 
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There has been a shooting in south Germany.
A teenager killed 17 people.
 
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Oh, man. Is it just me, or does this seem to be happening more and more? There are no words to describe this sort of thing, it's just so tragic and wrong.
 
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