Skyrim - 20 Minutes of Footage

The graphics ARE a lot less colourful than Oblivion's. That's a shame, because I kind of liked that.

I had the opposite feeling for some reason. I thought Skyrim looked bit more "green" than Oblivion!

It partly depends of what you call "colourful".

Light colours aren't there, that's clear.
 
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The PC version will definitely look better. Even with the same textures, you can have a higher resolution and longer drawing distance with grass, etc.

It doesn't look as good as Witcher 2, but Witcher 2 wasn't an open world game. This is a rather important distinction, as closed worlds can use a lot of shortcuts - Such as simply doing distant locations as paintings instead of creating them for real.

However, Witcher 2 had much better use of light, and better designs, IMHO. For example the trees in W2 were big and immersive, where as in Oblivion and apparently in Skyrim the forests are kinda dull-looking.

For some reason Bethesda productions tend to go for very bland map designs with a lot of flat, open ground. I thought that in particular Fallout 3 and New Vegas were just boring to look at, which made exploration less fun. The Russian indie-RPG Stalker did post-apocalyptic landscapes in a much more visually interesting manner.

And Bethesda's map designs compare unfavorably for example with Gothic 3 and Risen, which had very varied and interesting, cinematic landscapes.

But what REALLY comes off badly to me in the Skyrim footage so far is the use of light. I have lived all my life in Finland, which is up north. So I know how northern sun looks like, and Skyrim seems to get it all wrong.

The direction of sun in Skyrim looks like California sun. It's mostly straight above you, and comes down only in the morning and evening. But in the north sun travels a different axis - Midday is relatively short, and mornings and evenings are long. For the great majority of time, sunlight hits you more or less from the side, not from above. And it goes like this regardless of time of the year.

In fact it is this direction of the the sun, which makes northern countries colder. So for a northern region like Skyrim it's completely illogical to have the sun blazing mostly from straight above.

Not to mention that sidelight looks more attractive anyway, and would make the game more appealing to look at, and more atmospheric.

Granted, this probably is completely irrelevant to people who don't live up in the north. But to me it's really annoying. And the ugly, flat use of light does make the game feel less atmospheric.

I'm still psyched about the game, thought. I didn't like the vanilla Oblivion with it's pointless enemy-leveling system. But the heavily modded version I played one year later still remains as one of greatest RPG experience I have ever had. Bethesda have said that they will have a similar leveling to New Vegas in this, and the hardcode mode in New Vegas was very satisfying.
 
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Aye, what you say is true tuukka. I'm from Norway myself, and I can confirm that anyone walking in the mountains of Norway will most likely experience the sun shining straight on their face or back. Top down is rare.
 
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Are you guys saying that every region of Tamriel should look like the closest approximation of the Earth-equivalent - regardless of things like atmosphere, mass, orbit, other bodies in the solar system and rotation of the planet?

Not that I'm an expert - by any means - on this, but it would seem that some of those things could be different in an alternate solar system.

All this assuming they were actually going for a "true" emulation of nature and our current perception of science.

Personally, I think it's a bit much to ask for - but it would certainly be interesting to see a "realistic northern region" approach to lighting.
 
Are you guys saying that every region of Tamriel should look like the closest approximation of the Earth-equivalent - regardless of things like atmosphere, mass, orbit, other bodies in the solar system and rotation of the planet?

Not that I'm an expert - by any means - on this, but it would seem that some of those things could be different in an alternate solar system.

If they were actually going for a "true" emulation of nature and our current perception of science.

Well, we know where Skyrim is in relation to Cyrodii. There are world maps of the Elder Scrolls universe:

http://pc-overware.be/Frenrir/Images/Jeux/The Elder Scrolls Map.jpg

Considering that the planet of the Elder Scrolls universe has extremely similar conditions to earth, and since towards the northern pole the regions get considerably colder - As proven by both Oblivion and now Skyrim - the axis of the sun should be different in those two regions.

If the axis of sun would be the same, then the temperatures in Skyrim should be the same as they are in Cyrodiil.

We can't even justify Skyrim being colder by claiming that it's much more above sea level than Cyrodiil. Because parts of Skyrim are exactly at the sea level, and I'm betting that they don't have the lush Cyrodiil nature. Moreover, Cyrodiil clearly has different environmental regions, with southern parts being warmer, and northern parts being colder. And with the exception of the very north, they are at the sea level.

We can't even justify the change between Skyrim and Cyrodiil by assuming that Oblivion happened during summer, while Skyrim happens during the winter. Because if that were the case, the days in Skyrim should be much shorter than in Oblivion. Winter happens exactly because days get shorter, and the axis of the sun is different.

These rules would apply even on another planet on another solar system. It's basic physics. Since both Cyrodiil and Skyrim would be affected by the same atmosphere, mass, orbit and rotation, I don't see how any of those things could explain the difference. Another body in the solar system, namely another sun, could affect the climate in surprising ways, but there is only one sun in the sky of the planet.

Admittedly there is at least one plausible scenario that could explain this: Maybe Skyrim and Cyrodiil would indeed otherwise have the same temperatures, but Skyrim is being hit by a cold ocean current, while Cyrodiil is being hit by warm ocean currents. The two regions are separated by a big mountain range, which might effectively stop the air current on both sides.

This would mean that the "world map" of the planet is in fact not a world map, but merely a chunk of an islands in the middle of a much grander planet that we have never seen a map of.

But ultimately my point is this: I think it's rather obvious that Bethesda are modeling the weather conditions in the ES planet to the weather conditions on earth. Cyrodiil is the equivalent of the lush Middle-Europe, with southern parts being more Mediterranean. Northern parts such as Skyrim are emulating the nature in places like Norway. All the other details follow this principle - Except for the axis of the sun.

I don't like it, because the flat top lighting tends to make everything look a little bit uglier (movies try to avoid it for a reason). And assuming that the ES universe is emulating the weather conditions on Earth (which is kinda obvious IMHO), it's simply wrong and inaccurate. They are trying to create a northern feel with the game, but they have a southern sun.

I can easily see why it wouldn't matter to other people, thought. It's just my personal pet peeve. But then again, if they could see a comparison, most people would probably agree that more emphasis on side-lighting would make the game more attractive and atmospheric. It really does make a huge difference in visuals.

…Maybe I can convince one of those modder-people to make a "Northern sun" mod once the game comes out. Shouldn't be too hard of a mod to make, I guess. Just adjusting some values for the sun.

Despite my complaints I think the game looks really good graphically. It's an open world game after all. And on my high-end PC it should look even better, even if the textures are probably identical to X-box version.
 
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Wow, that was pretty long :)

In short: I get your complaint and I think you're right that they're working from "Earth-like" conditions.

However, I personally think it's a pretty tiny issue in the grand scheme of things - and I would assume there are countless reasons one could invent to make it "ok" to have different lighting behaviors. I'm just not going to bother figuring them out myself, as I don't need them.

If it's a "scientific absolute" that, given similar natural rules, Skyrim has unrealistic lighting - then I'll have to accept that, as I'm not really competent enough in this area to argue against it. Though I wasn't talking about climate - but about lighting behavior. It was just a "wild" suggestion to alleviate some frustration :)

Maybe some science freak can clarify if there's some scientific loophole to justify the perceived position of the Sun and the behavior of light in Skyrim?
 
Wow, that was pretty long :)

In short: I get your complaint and I think you're right that they're working from "Earth-like" conditions.

However, I personally think it's a pretty tiny issue in the grand scheme of things - and I would assume there are countless reasons one could invent to make it "ok" to have different lighting behaviors. I'm just not going to bother figuring them out myself, as I don't need them.

If it's a "scientific absolute" that, given similar natural rules, Skyrim has unrealistic lighting - then I'll have to accept that, as I'm not really competent enough in this area to argue against it. Though I wasn't talking about climate - but about lighting behavior. It was just a "wild" suggestion to alleviate some frustration :)

Maybe some science freak can clarify if there's some scientific loophole to justify the perceived position of the Sun and the behavior of light in Skyrim?

Well, from a scientific perspective it doesn't matter, really. :) I just had fun thinking about the scientific plausibility. And like I said, ocean currents are actually a really plausible explanation.

I was editing my post and adding more comments while you were writing yours, so just to clarify: I think that having a sun that emulates the behavior of Earth's northern sun in places such as Norway, would probably make the game feel more "northern" even to people who have never visited a northern county. It creates a different kind of atmosphere.

Moreover, a lower trajectory on the sun would automatically cause a lot of sidelight and backlight, which would make the game much more pretty and atmospheric. Movies actively try to avoid top-light because it tends to make things look dull and ugly, and they go for either sidelight or backlight. So far every video we have seen of Skyrim has top-light (or alternatively it's cloudy). Having the sun in Skyrim follow a lower trajectory would create much more attractive visuals throughout the game.

One of the reasons Witcher 2 is so pretty is the excellent use of light. Whenever they could, they emulated movies in their lighting, which is a smart thing to do. The sun in the game is following a much lower trajectory than the sun in Skyrim. You get a lot of really atmospheric sidelight and backlight in Witcher 2.
 
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You're assuming that the sun casts real-time shadows on the world in Skyrim. :) I don't think it's as simple as moving the sun and its trajectory around in the sky box. I assume lightmaps need to be adjusted, too. But I'm not a graphics artist.

I want accurate depiction of northern lights in the sky, though. :) And not all the time, because it's not in the sky all the time in real life. I want accurate refraction of light by the atmosphere! And of course the constellations should look different than in Cyrodiil. And will we get realistic season shifts in this game? Rainbows in the sky with local showers? So many things could be more complex and realistic. ;)
 
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Well, from a scientific perspective it doesn't matter, really. :) I just had fun thinking about the scientific plausibility.

I was editing my post and adding more comments while you were writing yours, so just to clarify: I think that having a sun that emulates the behavior of Earth's northern sun in places such as Norway, would probably make the game feel more "northern" even to people who have never visited a northern county. It creates a different kind of atmosphere.

Moreover, a lower trajectory on the sun would automatically cause a lot of sidelight and backlight, which would make the game much more pretty and atmospheric. Movies actively try to avoid top-light because it tends to make things look dull and ugly, and they go for either sidelight or backlight. So far every video we have seen of Skyrim has top-light (or alternatively it's cloudy). Having the sun in Skyrim follow a lower trajectory would create much more attractive visuals throughout the game.

Yeah, I fully understand that you think this side-light yields a prettier result - and you could be right.

I'd probably have to see it in action to comment, and see how it affected the overall atmosphere long-term.

Since you'll be spending hundreds of hours in the world, I'm not entirely sure something as powerful as "realistic northern light" would be appropriate. I'm from "up north" myself, and I agree that such lighting can be amazingly beautiful - but I also think it's somewhat "one-sided" in terms of atmosphere - and I think it would perhaps dominate inappropriately. I'm a big fan of diversity in huge open world games.

Still, it would be interesting to see how it would work in Skyrim.
 
Tuukka, I don't really support your pet peeve but many thanks for an interesting lesson on how the sun and weather :)

Also you should post this on their blog (not forums). May be some dev will read it.
 
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While the northern sun detail would have been a nice touch, I might also point out that the 'sun' in the TES universe is actually a hole in the fabric of their reality that one of the gods punched out to get the heck out of it and back to their heaven.

So yeah, Bethesda were lazy and ignorant but, like everything else, they can explain it away with their bizarre lore.
 
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Someone should pass this sun light angle thing on to the developers. I find it important.

If we assume that the world of the Elder Scrolls series is a sphere (like our Earth), then the conditions should imho be similar.
 
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tuukka said:
... So I know how northern sun looks like, and Skyrim seems to get it all wrong ...
Here I was thinking I was a hardcore simulationist, but tuukka has shown me the light (pun intended) and a new level of simulationism to strive for! Thanks, brother tuukka! ;)
 
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Well, like I said, the scientific plausibility is fun to speculate, but not really important to gameplay. :)

But atmosphere and appealing visuals are important, IMHO. Judging by the footage these could be improved on, without making the game any harder to run. The game could play with light to make it more handsome - Like Witcher 2 did to great effect. But flat and bland use of light seems to be somewhat of a Bethesda trademark at this point. Mind you, in interiors they seem to be going for a more atmospheric approach, and I dig the windy, snowy mountains.

The Bethesda quarters are at Maryland, which is on the same altitude as northern California, or southern Spain. That's probably why they have that particular trajectory for the sun in their games - It's what they are used to seeing.
 
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Oh and BTW, it would have been awesome if they would have incorporated the awesome "Thieves Arsenal" mod for Oblivion into Skyrim. Or at least some of its central elements.

The mod basically took stealth elements from the classic "Thief" series and added them into the gameplay. Which made Oblivion MUCH more tactical and particularly rewarding for stealth players.

You can read about the mod here - It was one of the most crucial mods for Oblivion and greatly enhanced the game:

http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/Thieves_Arsenal

I hope they re-create the mod for Skyrim. In fact I'm willing to withhold playing Skyrim for a couple of months, if I can expect to get the mod.
 
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There's some new Skyrim footage (shakycam) from Tokyo Game Show 2011. Get it while it's hot (and before it's taken down): http://www.gametrailers.com/game/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/14247. Thanks to azarhal for finding the videos.

There isn't that much new on the videos, but at least you get an "unmoderated" look into the game. Same village and guard tower that are in all the official video clips, but this time not played by Todd.

I saw that one-handed weapon blocking (i.e. parrying) is in, apparently as long as your off hand is empty. The dude playing parried with his 1H axe several times. The parry animation put both hands on the axe for the parry, which looked pretty good in fact.
 
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That's a nice catch, grue. It'd be nice to be able to block if not duel-wielding
 
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