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July 13th, 2019, 20:47
The fault is in putting pixel children in to start with, because you want to add immersion, to them throw it all down the drain by making them immune to the world's hazards., which is pretty idiotic. If you don't want pixel children to be harmed for any reasons, just don't add them. The addition of them in godmode defeats the whole point of putting them in to start with. Same with plot NPCs. If you want plot NPCs, make them unkillable for in-character reasons. Whether you make them strong, well protected, or hiding behind a ten inch bullet-proof glass, that's fine. But if you shoot a NPC you are standing in front of and it can't die for metagame reasons, then my RPG-meter goes down.

This will definitely not affect a lot on whether I buy the game or not (I've already preordered it) but it'll matter when I recommend other friends that are on the fence whether it's worth buying or not.
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July 13th, 2019, 21:17
"Yeah, Cyberpunk looks great in most aspects, but I'm not sure I can recommend it." "You know you can't kill children, right?"
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July 13th, 2019, 21:45
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
"Yeah, Cyberpunk looks great in most aspects, but I'm not sure I can recommend it." "You know you can't kill children, right?"
Another asinine comment that completely misses the point, as expected.
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July 13th, 2019, 21:48
Uh oh… panties twisted.

That was in jest btw.
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July 13th, 2019, 21:52
The snippet says “players will not be able to "attack children or NPCs connected with the plot”. Since there is no comma between ‘children’ and ‘or’ I presume they are talking about children connected with the plot. And not all children in the game.

To allow adults to be killed and make children unkillable seems too artificial and moralistic to me.
Pixel killing is fine, killing pixel adults is fine, but killing pixel kids a no-no?

I remember playing a racing game many years ago, where the fun was killing as many pedestrians as you could. Knocking over the elderly and the women with perambulator resulted in the highest points. It was such fun!
I was not the only one playing the game, thousands and thousands did. Of course, political parties wanted to ban the game.

I have no soft spot for kids, not in games nor irl. I don’t feel different when killing a pixel child compared to killing a pixel adult. The first time I ‘had’ to kill a wolf in Gothic though….

But please, no gory details, I hate them, in games AND movies. So I skip the ones having lots of it, no matter the age of the characters in it. For I am a softie. So yes, of course, I do play the good guy if I can, and perform good deeds and try to rescue as many people as I can. But if being a bad ass is the fun and goal, I embrace it.

This discussion always heats up when words like psychopath are used, when drawing conclusions about the players personality and mental health, conclusions that are merely based on game preferences.
I thought science long time ago came to the conclusion that violent games are harmless? (Unless you already have a personality disorder.)
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Last edited by Eye; July 13th, 2019 at 22:13. Reason: ‘Adult’ needed to be ‘child’
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July 13th, 2019, 21:59
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
I remember playing a racing game many years ago, where the fun was killing as many pedestrians as you could. Knocking over the elderly and the women with perambulator resulted in the highest points. It was such fun!
I was not the only one playing the game, thousands and thousands did. Of course, political parties wanted to ban the game.
That was Carmageddon, but it doesn't help the point, because that game really was about running over people for the hell of it, and pregnant women gave more points than anything else if I remember well. It wasn't a RPG either, so nobody could care less whether it was immersive or not.

I think it's pretty easy to understand that all a lot of us want from a RPG is that it doesn't metagame on you. I'm one to not enjoy real world pop culture references, for example. Unkillable anything just feels like another similar artificial immersion draining feature.

PS/Edit: That everyone is killable doesn't have to mean you can get away with killing anyone, either. I'm fully happy if killing certain NPC just gets you to a game over screen because for example, you can't possibly escape alive the retaliation from the NPC's allies. But at least you had the freedom to explore that choice and suffer its consequences if you are so inclined. Making the NPC unkillable besides artificial and metagame-y is also the laziest way to deal player freedom of choice as a developer.
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July 13th, 2019, 22:09
Yes, Carmageddon!
I know it was a completely different game, but I brought it up because some things in this thread reminded me of the outcry at the time, and the negative labelling.
So what if you like to kill children/adults in a game? Be it just for fun or because the game gets more aspects that you’d have to take into account while playing and judging a situation?
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Last edited by Eye; July 13th, 2019 at 23:01. Reason: Added: ‘me’
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July 13th, 2019, 22:30
Originally Posted by Kos View Post
You know self-defense is quite ok as an excuse to kill a 4yo
It is? wow , thats sick you need real help. Thanks for teaching me this Kos. pulling stuff from peoples posts to make them mean something totally different is fun.


Originally Posted by Kos View Post
It must be the difference of culture but talking about killing children to add plots in such a casual way is just sick. It is not like we did not have a world of possible plots.
This has nothing to do with cultures. Within each culture you will find people with opposing viewpoints. It's just individual peoples opinions. I thought it was weird you brought up culture and wondered if you had an agenda or bias. fortunately you left no doubt with the following post.

Originally Posted by Kos View Post

I am Swiss so keep your USA/Christian/bigot shit for yourself but nearly every people blaming immersion regarding kids and that probably includes you are from an Anglo Saxon country.
Now I see the mindset you're posting from. the Swiss are pillars of morality while the US are degenerate scumbags. Now that you've set us straight on that let's move on.

Originally Posted by Kos View Post
It must be the difference of culture but talking about killing children to add plots in such a casual way is just sick. It is not like we did not have a world of possible plots.

I love the 'kill a child in the game, in such a way that is done out of pure evil (not connected to the plot or for some other explanation like self-defense'.

You know self-defense is quite ok as an excuse to kill a 4yo, apparently.

or the 'Like a working justice and legal system. Want to go on a rampage, fine but if your caught and sentenced to life in prison then a cinematic plays and credits roll, have ways to avoid this such as bribing a judge or intimidating a juror to get acquitted or hack to erase your record, etc. make this thing difficult to achieve though.'

Some kind of American justice system simulation? Can you do an Epstein and be the hero of the day?

Well, I do not think CDPR will ever cater to this kind of thing.
Now I've posted your entire post, a courtesy you didn't extend but why would you it wouldn't have supported your post.

It's quite a disingenuous post as you know darn well that no one is talking about killing real children as that would be sick. A fact that was even in my post but of course you didn't quote that part.

Quoting a part of someones post so you can specifically respond to that point is an often used and accepted way to exchange ideas. cherry picking from someones post to change the meaning of their post is pretty sad.

For the record I don't intentionally kill anyone in a game that isn't put there to be killed. It's just not the way I play. However I know people that will kill an entire city if allowed in a game just to see what will happen. There's nothing wrong with either way imo, let people enjoy games how they wish to enjoy them. It is a game after all, just ones and zeros. If you have a hard time telling the difference between games and reality then maybe you should game less and go to therapy more.
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July 13th, 2019, 22:37
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
Another asinine comment that completely misses the point, as expected.
…you know there are no valid arguments left when people have to make stuff up (that you never said or argued for in the first place) to be able to continue their little charade. So basically they're arguing with themselves lol..

let them have a fun with that and move on would be my advice. i've had that happening here so many times, one of the reasons i don't argue politics here any longer..
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July 13th, 2019, 22:56
It's pretty sad and pathetic when someone attempts to turn a harmless poke into something more than it was meant to be.
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July 13th, 2019, 22:58
Could everybody that feels steam coming out of their ears get up and take a stroll in the neighbourhood or something like that?

I am not going to sift through every post and see whether there is an (in)direct insult worth an infraction, too many people are not weighing their words and are adding fuel to the fire.

I find this thread interesting and would hate to close it.
Remember we are just talking about GAME preferences.
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Last edited by Eye; July 13th, 2019 at 23:33. Reason: Much -> many
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July 14th, 2019, 00:37
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
It's pretty sad and pathetic when someone attempts to turn a harmless poke into something more than it was meant to be.
its not a "poke" when several people have argued like that in the thread, which is quite pathetic.. but sure, it was a poke, ok. good.
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July 14th, 2019, 01:29
Some people need to chill out seriously. Most people aren't sick twisted monsters who likes killing pixel "children/people" to satisfy their dark side - just want what adds more immersion/c&c too the game.

Done with this thread. No point continuing when some people are seriously stuck on "but how can you kill children".
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July 14th, 2019, 01:29
I've killed many thousands of digital people (and aliens, and robots, and what have you) in my many years of gaming, and I have no moral issue with it in general. But reading through these posts makes me think those who argue that gaming in general is far too focused on killing are probably right, since again and again that is the ONLY measure any of you are using to determine whether you have "freedom" in this game. Those making comparisons to games like Carmegeddon are even more off target, since the point of a game like that is carnage. The game I'm currently playing is Hitman 2016/2, and the point of that game IS murder, so it makes perfect sense that everyone in the game is killable (and then the game penalizes your score for killing non-targets) It doesn't distinguish between, say, guards and innocent shopkeepers; the penalty is the same. Again, however, that's a game about a hitman, and the point of the game is murder. I can't attest to all of the themes of Cyberpunk 2077's story, but I'm 100% sure the point of the game isn't murder, so exclusively worrying so much about just how freely you can murder seems very reductive and tunnel visioned to me, if not worrisome.
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July 14th, 2019, 01:42
No it is not reductive, nor tunnel visioned, nor worrisome. It is merely addressing the topic of this thread: unkillable children.

Edit
If food in Cyberpunk 2077 would be the topic of the thread, you can not conclude it is reductive, tunnel visioned or worrisome that people care about say the low/high quality of the food since food is not THE major theme, “the point” of Cyberpunk 2077. No agreed, it’s not. But since it is the topic of the thread people talk mostly about food in the thread.

I have not read anyone in this thread about unkillable children in Cyberpunk 2077 saying having killable children is the only thing they care about in this game.
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Last edited by Eye; July 14th, 2019 at 02:14.
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July 14th, 2019, 01:44
@JFarrell71
Again with the "freely murder"? you haven't understood a thing and you clearly don't want to understand either. Carmageddon is a good example, i don't see why a situation in a RPG, no less, could get out of hand and turn into absolute carnage.

Also why always assume that the person you are playing is the one doing the killing or the carnage. Obviously other NPC's (gangs, law enforcement etc) and also fires, heights, bombs, mines, traps or whatever can also kill. And again, it does not by any means make the game unplayable if its not in, i'm sure it can be modded in just like in Skyrim or whatever, with very little effort. A dead kid (or animal) is always a bit of added tragedy, it adds situational drama and randomness to the game.

I don't think it's a good idea to censorship it, it makes it a norm, it can spread to other things being unkillable (animals would be my guess could be up next) and to other mediums too.
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July 14th, 2019, 02:40
I think the stance of, "Just think of the children!" is a wee bit pathetic, just based on common sense. It makes me want to advise those who are so very concerned about it, that they need to write on a chalkboard 100 times, "Video games aren't real" and then maybe it will get through their heads.

None of it is real, folks. Just think of another form of entertainment, movies. Have you ever heard of a movie franchise called, "The Hunger Games" . It was a blockbuster and made millions upon millions. The main plot line was about kids killing other kids (*Gasp*!)

Now, this wasn't because millions of people who went to see those movies were secretly child killers or had inner Ted Bundy's and were satisfying a sick, blood thirsty inner appetite, the movies were popular because they were damn good entertainment, and many normal people enjoyed watching them.

*Ends common sense lecture*
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July 14th, 2019, 03:08
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
its not a "poke" when several people have argued like that in the thread, which is quite pathetic.. but sure, it was a poke, ok. good.
I'm pretty sure I know what I meant a little better than you do.
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July 14th, 2019, 03:08
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I've killed many thousands of digital people (and aliens, and robots, and what have you) in my many years of gaming, and I have no moral issue with it in general. But reading through these posts makes me think those who argue that gaming in general is far too focused on killing are probably right, since again and again that is the ONLY measure any of you are using to determine whether you have "freedom" in this game. Those making comparisons to games like Carmegeddon are even more off target, since the point of a game like that is carnage. The game I'm currently playing is Hitman 2016/2, and the point of that game IS murder, so it makes perfect sense that everyone in the game is killable (and then the game penalizes your score for killing non-targets) It doesn't distinguish between, say, guards and innocent shopkeepers; the penalty is the same. Again, however, that's a game about a hitman, and the point of the game is murder. I can't attest to all of the themes of Cyberpunk 2077's story, but I'm 100% sure the point of the game isn't murder, so exclusively worrying so much about just how freely you can murder seems very reductive and tunnel visioned to me, if not worrisome.
I don’t think anyone is “exclusively worrying” about it but the article that this thread is about is about unkillable children and npc’s. So it stands to reason that that would be the focus of the thread.

Maybe i missed it but I haven’t read anyone saying they wouldn’t buy the game or the game would suck because of it. Doesn’t seem like anyone’s overly worried.
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July 14th, 2019, 03:24
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
@JFarrell71
Again with the "freely murder"? you haven't understood a thing and you clearly don't want to understand either. Carmageddon is a good example, i don't see why a situation in a RPG, no less, could get out of hand and turn into absolute carnage.

Also why always assume that the person you are playing is the one doing the killing or the carnage. Obviously other NPC's (gangs, law enforcement etc) and also fires, heights, bombs, mines, traps or whatever can also kill. And again, it does not by any means make the game unplayable if its not in, i'm sure it can be modded in just like in Skyrim or whatever, with very little effort. A dead kid (or animal) is always a bit of added tragedy, it adds situational drama and randomness to the game.

I don't think it's a good idea to censorship it, it makes it a norm, it can spread to other things being unkillable (animals would be my guess could be up next) and to other mediums too.
A few games off the top of my head with children (and other NPCs) you cannot kill:

All of the Borderlands games
All of the Rockstar games

I think I can stop there, actually. Borderlands takes an anarchic, gleeful approach to murder and more. As a player, what you 99.9% do is shoot and blow up people. But can you kill Tiny Tina? No. Can you kill Brick or Lilith or any of the other major NPCs? No. And why can't you kill them? Because the game is full of killing, but killing is not THE point. There's narrative structure to the game, and that structure is communicated through those NPCs. Skyrim, of course, is the same way. If you feel like modding in the ability to kill those NPCs, go for it. But in doing so, you will render 90% of the game pointless. It will just be a sandbox to run around in, and nothing else. Expecting the designers themselves to do that is stupid.

Which is why I brought up a game like Rust earlier. There is no plot in Rust. There are no objectives, no characters, no story. That game is solely about building things and killing and being killed. So if that's what you want in a game, that's where you'll find it. You won't find it in Cyberpunk 2077, just like you won't, and haven't, found it in any story driven games.

And NONE of that is the same as saying that killing NPCs can't be a choice, or used for dramatic purposes. There is a huge and extremely obvious difference between killing or allowing the death of NPCs, potentially including children, as part of a scripted quest, and being able to kill anyone at any time, which is what everyone here has been talking about. There is no actual choice involved in the latter, no more than ramming your avatar into a wall over and over is a "choice". It's not a choice the game presents as a useful one. You might just as well get mad at the developers for not allowing you to make the "choice" to give yourself a severe head injury.

It's not fucking censorship, and the fact that you call it that tells me a lot about your critical thinking ability. At this point, if you keep screeching "but my immersion!" without even attempting to acknowledge or understand why there are fundamental issues to allowing you to randomly kill people that has nothing to do with robbing you of your free will, or accusing you of being a closet murderer, you never will.
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