RPGWatch - GOTY Awards 2018 - Most Promising RPG

Why don't you elaborate on how you calculate the cost of implementing multiplayer using a "network guy" doing his job?

I mean, if we pretend that the game design doesn't matter in that equation :)

I can't wait for your googled response.

Well, it does depend on the scale of the project. Indie games developed by a single person can and have had multiplayer. As the project gets bigger they might want to hire someone to work exclusively on the networking. Bigger still it might get a team dedicated to the task.

If you don't want me to google an example then I will not. But I can't think of any off the top of my head. It will certainly never take the bulk of the staff to achieve.
 
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Well, it does depend on the scale of the project. Indie games developed by a single person can and have had multiplayer. As the project gets bigger they might want to hire someone to work exclusively on the networking. Bigger still it might get a team dedicated to the task.

If you don't want me to google an example then I will not. But I can't think of any off the top of my head. It will certainly never take the bulk of the staff to achieve.

It's not just about scale, but about design and about the nature of the game. Certain small scale games don't lend themselves well to multiplayer implementations - like, for instance, adventure games.

So, I think it's a little too easy to talk about how easy it is in such a broad sense.

However, I don't mean to sound like I disagree with you when it comes to the value of multiplayer.

In fact, you seem to be one of the very, very few people on the Watch who understand just how much more fun games can be when shared.

Beyond that, I would have to agree with you that the VAST majority of CRPGs that have implemented cooperative multiplayer have been significantly better for it.

This DEFINITELY includes D:OS1.

People who think implementing multiplayer necessarily means an inferior singleplayer experience are simply not aware of the reality of game design or development.
 
It's not just about scale, but about design and about the nature of the game. Certain small scale games don't lend themselves well to multiplayer implementations - like, for instance, adventure games.
Well, the designers just design a little differently. They're still doing their job. It doesn't require additional gameplay designers.

If you look at the Baldurs Gate games there's very little change to the design. You have a party of 6. In multiplayer you can decide who controls who, who is allowed to pause, who is allowed to initiate a map change, who can save the game, etc.

More often than not the "network guy" is just called a programmer but internally they know who is focused primarily on networking.

However, I don't mean to sound like I disagree with you when it comes to the value of multiplayer.

In fact, you seem to be one of the very, very few people on the Watch who understand just how much more fun games can be when shared.

Beyond that, I would have to agree with you that the VAST majority of CRPGs that have implemented cooperative multiplayer have been significantly better for it.

This DEFINITELY includes D:OS1.

People who think implementing multiplayer necessarily means an inferior singleplayer experience are simply not aware of the reality of game design or development.
Agreed.

It's like I always say; the start of D&D and RPGs was a multiplayer tabletop game.

In the day of goldbox AD&D games, it was much faster to have a computer "DM" do the die rolls but it lost the core of the tabletop experience by forcing one person to play the whole party. It took a while for technology to catch up. I would have been extremely keen to play AOLs Neverwinter in those days, but being a kid with no money and not having a modem or "it will help with school work!" internet excuse it was well out of reach.

Now here we are in 2019 and "spiritual successors" to BG appear to have completely forgotten about D&Ds roots and many people who claim to be RPG lovers are actively against developers providing the core of the experience.

Some might say "so just play tabletop" but, like I said, it's much faster to have a CPU do the die rolls. There are things a human DM can do better, like make things up on the spot, but that's why Neverwinter Nights and SCL allowed for a DM in the game. We need more games like Neverwinter Nights.

I'm sure I've heard purpleblob talk about how great a user made NWN campaign was. Even years later that toolkit still gets used! If anything, modern publishers are probably the ones not allowing users to create their own content because it lowers the need for players to buy their DLC.

RPG players really need to support multiplayer, toolkits and DM mode so we can finally get a new NWN and the almost unlimited amount of content and value that comes with it.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker offers none of these things. :(
 
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Well, the designers just design a little differently. They're still doing their job. It doesn't require additional gameplay designers.

If you look at the Baldurs Gate games there's very little change to the design. You have a party of 6. In multiplayer you can decide who controls who, who is allowed to pause, who is allowed to initiate a map change, who can save the game, etc.

More often than not the "network guy" is just called a programmer but internally they know who is focused primarily on networking.

You misunderstand. The game has to be designed from the ground up to be multiplayer - or else it will be a challenge to implement the feature.

Baldur's Gate started out as a real-time strategy game - so it was intended for multiplayer from the beginning in terms of the engine.

But, it's clear that they didn't think things through for a CRPG - because the game would pause for every single NPC interaction and the other players would have to wait until it was done.

Which is a good example of what can go wrong - and how a badly prepared design can't just be converted to a good coop experience by paying a "network guy".
 
You misunderstand. The game has to be designed from the ground up to be multiplayer - or else it will be a challenge to implement the feature.

Baldur's Gate started out as a real-time strategy game - so it was intended for multiplayer from the beginning in terms of the engine.

But, it's clear that they didn't think things through for a CRPG - because the game would pause for every single NPC interaction and the other players would have to wait until it was done.

Which is a good example of what can go wrong - and how a badly prepared design can't just be converted to a good coop experience by paying a "network guy".

With Kingdom Come I don't see how they could implement multiplayer.

Pathfinder and Pillers of Eternity(2) could easily have copied BG and learned from their shortcomings. Making sure everyone has had time to read the text could be as simple as all players having to click OK before it continues.

DivinityOS tried to do multiplayer dialogue and should be commended for that, even if it didn't work perfectly. You can be sure I'll instantly buy Larians next game because they seem to be the only developer who "gets it".
 
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I understand perfectly fine why some people want multiplayer, and I also understand that having multiplayer componentscsn increase sales thus making it worthwhile. What I don't understand it's when people claim multiplayer is the "right" way to play cRPG's. It's certainly the right way to play PnP, I pity the poor bastard who plays a DnD campaign by himself acting as both DM and Player…

In Computer RPG's though? No thank you, I do not want other people in my games, no matter the genre. I played a lot of MMO's for a couple of years and while that had it's charm as well, it's not the experience I'm looking for today.
Smaller scale co-op doesn't interest me either. I have a job with loads of social interactions, I have a family and friends. When I'm in front of the computer I want to be left alone…
 
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Beyond that, I would have to agree with you that the VAST majority of CRPGs that have implemented cooperative multiplayer have been significantly better for it.

Nah, I like playing alone, go away :p

I'm sure I've heard purpleblob talk about how great a user made NWN campaign was. Even years later that toolkit still gets used! If anything, modern publishers are probably the ones not allowing users to create their own content because it lowers the need for players to buy their DLC.

*Snip*

Pathfinder: Kingmaker offers none of these things. :(

Yes, I think NWN user made campaigns are fantastic and while I would also welcome good modding tool, I prefer the base game to be excellent first - NWN failed in this regard.
 
Two Worlds III Won’t Release for Another Four to Five Years
https://wccftech.com/two-worlds-iii-still-preproduction/

Cyperpunk is of course highest on the list for me, really hope for a 2019 release.
Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness looks interesting too, the rest i dunno..
 
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TomRon totally nailed it. I'll play an online game if that's what I feel like, or break out a board game when the family is over, but when I fire up my computer for a role-playing game, it's just me and my pc controlled opponents. Get out of my way or die screaming.
 
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I understand perfectly fine why some people want multiplayer, and I also understand that having multiplayer componentscsn increase sales thus making it worthwhile. What I don't understand it's when people claim multiplayer is the "right" way to play cRPG's. It's certainly the right way to play PnP, I pity the poor bastard who plays a DnD campaign by himself acting as both DM and Player…

Well, I would argue it's definitely the most fun way - if you play with friends or people you actually like playing with.

However, we're all different.

With that said, I really do suspect that people who're not into multiplayer gaming have never tried it with actual friends.

Personally, I have zero interest in cooperative multiplayer with strangers. I'm not a terribly social individual - and so I don't really want to bother getting to know people or what not. I've never been big on craving company if it's not meaningful and with some kind of depth.

Playing with people I'll never meet - or see - in real life, just doesn't appeal to me all that much.

In Computer RPG's though? No thank you, I do not want other people in my games, no matter the genre. I played a lot of MMO's for a couple of years and while that had it's charm as well, it's not the experience I'm looking for today.
Smaller scale co-op doesn't interest me either. I have a job with loads of social interactions, I have a family and friends. When I'm in front of the computer I want to be left alone…

What if, when you are with your familiy and friends, you all played together? Would that still be so bad?

Personally, I've had some of the most fun in life when I shared a game with a girlfriend or a couple of close friends.

I think one highlight of my life was the three years I spent playing WoW with my then-GF.

Of course, that eventually had a very high cost - but it will always stand out as the one time I got to share my passion with a loved one in a very, very significant way.

I struggle to think of anything that could be more satisfying, to be honest.
 
Pathfinder and Pillers of Eternity(2) could easily have copied BG and learned from their shortcomings. Making sure everyone has had time to read the text could be as simple as all players having to click OK before it continues.

BG had awful coop multiplayer - because they didn't plan for it properly.

NWN worked very well, however - and cooperative multiplayer was sort of the entire point of that game. Of course, it took around 10 patches before you could save the game without it becoming corrupted.

You sound like someone who's never played this kind of game in cooperative mode. Some players take 10 minutes to read a few paragraphs, and others take 10 seconds or just skip it entirely. So, your solution would be obscenely bad for the impatient players.

There are ways around this, of course - but, as I said, you need to prepare the design for cooperative multiplayer from the beginning to make it work well.

You can half-ass it, sure, but that's not what we'd want, I think.

DivinityOS tried to do multiplayer dialogue and should be commended for that, even if it didn't work perfectly. You can be sure I'll instantly buy Larians next game because they seem to be the only developer who "gets it".

DOS and DOS2 are examples of designs that revolve around cooperative multiplayer from the very inception of the concept.

Swen implemented coop because he wanted a CRPG he could play with his wife - which is why they went out of their way to do it right.

Even so, DOS suffered - as you say - from some weak implementations with dialogue and a few other issues.

This should sufficiently demonstrate how challenging it can be to do.
 
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I'm currently playing BG: EE coop with a friend. I'm amazed Beamdog shipped it in the state that's it in. It may work better during LAN play, which is what the original (from BG2 if I recall correctly) was intended for, but playing over the internet is useless. It's amazingly laggy, and it keeps throwing out whoever is not hosting almost all the time. In addition to that, there's a bunch of additional bugs related to inventory management etc.
 
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Do you mean in New Game+?

No that was fine (I'll probably get around to it some day). I mean the state of the world in the game, after the ending (but before starting a new game +).

I get that they want to let you do some quests you missed, but some actual acknowledgement of what happened at the end would have been nice. As in: actually seeing your effect on the war, if you had any.
 
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I get that they want to let you do some quests you missed, but some actual acknowledgement of what happened at the end would have been nice. As in: actually seeing your effect on the war, if you had any.

I didn't even notice that :)

Then again, I quit immediately after ending the main quest - as I was pretty sick of the endless dialogue cutscenes by then, and progression stopped being interesting very early in the game, so I didn't see much of a point in going on. I considered doing the DLC - but I realised I just didn't care enough about new side stories to go through that much dialogue and endless spammy combat.

But if the world doesn't even register what happened, that's pretty weaksauce - I must say.
 
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