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Default Avernum 3: Ruined World - Jeff Vogel Blog

February 9th, 2018, 15:50
I'd love to see him do Infinity but unless he agrees to scale his operation (via KickStarter etc) you are certainly correct it wont happen. At the end of the day this is a healthy discussion and indicative of the fact that many folks simply care about Jeff's games.
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February 9th, 2018, 16:01
I just laugh at anyone that considers these games ugly and/or unplayable simply for appearance's sake. Probably best that anyone that thinks that stay far away from tactically challenging games where they'd get murked in record time.

I guess a lot of it may also have to do with when you came to the gaming, but that isn't a truism. I know people in their twenties and thirties that love the same games that I do, and nothing brings me more joy these days.
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February 9th, 2018, 16:44
For me it pretty much depends. There are just some styles which really put me off.

For example I would not take a second look at any game which screams RPG-Maker or where you can see anime-like characters. Also I wouldn't play any new game which has a 800*600 resolution or something like that. I also dislike the "icon" graphics of battle brothers. Doesn't mean I'd never play it. But it means it decreases its attractiveness for me, therefore goes lower in the "want to play"-list, which is usually full of other crap which I'd play instead up to a point where the game goes out of sight and is forgotten.
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February 9th, 2018, 18:32
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
If it is in fact going to be top-down, I understand why. Jeff does not have the resources to go into a really improved-looking isometric look. I don't see any way he could do something to the quality level of the Infinity Engine and no way in hell could he get close to the Pillars engine on his budget.
I really don't think thats it. I believe him when he says he just has a preference to do top down now. He stated in the AMA he wants to work in C++ and have total control over the engine so I'm not sure the Infinity Engine would suit him not to mention his preference for turn based (thank the Gods for that at least). Ultimately his weak point is art assets (personally not a big issue for me but he needs someone else to do it apparently) and finding someone to create them for him. I think that is where a lot of his costs will go no matter if its top down or isometric.
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February 9th, 2018, 20:35
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
I just don't rule out certain types of games because of how they look. If there's an interesting RPG I'll try it.
I get that why you're saying that graphics aren't everything… But graphics still matter for many, including myself. For me the game's visual style is an important factor. It is part of the whole experience.

I think there is quite a difference wanting everything to be top quality graphics or even full 3d. I just desire games I play to look intresting, exciting, orginal etc. Details, art style, textures, modelling. All of that is important.

Serpent in the Staglands for instance had a certain specific art style which was quite nice actually even if it was just an indie game. Dungeons of Chaos on the otherhand which was reviewed here just recently is not very pleasing to look at. There may be a good game underneath, but this is 2018, not 1994 or something. I expect a bit more than those kind of retro graphics.

Even the camera perspective matters. For me isometric, first person, third person are all fine, top down on the otherhand I find much less enjoyable. At the end of day everyone will just has to ask himself: Do the good aspects outweight the bad? I've played some games which had top down camera because they were otherwise so damn good, but the camera angle still bothered me a bit.
Last edited by Dez; February 9th, 2018 at 20:46.
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February 9th, 2018, 21:04
I play whatever man. If the game has good mechanics I find interesting, it doesn't matter if it's an anime JRPG, Skyrim or text-based ASCII, I'll play it. I guess that's just me.
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February 9th, 2018, 21:09
Although gameplay is the king… The point I was trying to get accross was that graphics play some part in that assessment whether game is good ot not, atleast for me. Videogames is a visual medium. Good mechanics alone aren't enough. Aspects such as audio, story and visuals play important role too.
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February 9th, 2018, 21:13
That's your perspective. If graphics are part of the package they are very low to me, almost negligible.

Let me give you an example. I'm playing Choice of Wizards on Android. It's strictly a text-based RPG, an interactive story. I play those a lot on tablet and enjoy them. They have RPG mechanics, inventory, choices to make - yet it's all text. To me, they are enjoyable and worth playing.

I guess it just varies from person to person. But I'm fine with Dungeons of Chaos looking stuff (just wishlisted it the other day) and I'm fine with Skyrim, or anime JRPGs, or whatever. You guys limit yourselves by not checking out those games if you're fans of RPGs. Because I'll tell you that there are plenty of JRPGs and anime-looking games that have excellent, interesting RPG mechanics. And there are games like Caves of Qud and other weird-looking ones that have amazing mechanics. And to me, that is what makes these games, visual medium or not, worth playing. Not looks.

So that's just me. Spiderweb games don't have audio, btw. At least not anything worth mentioning. Graphics are sparse. Yet to me, those games are immersive and interesting as hell because of the systems Jeff implements, the writing and so on. It's the package to me, and I value mechanics and RPG "stuff" a lot more than anything else.

I also play RPGs without major stories, but I guess I'm also weird like that (Oubliette, anyone?)
Last edited by Fluent; February 9th, 2018 at 22:13.
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February 9th, 2018, 22:29
They are video games Fluent and entertainment. This ain’t classic literature where we are losing out on life altering enrichment opportunities
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February 9th, 2018, 23:14
K….
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February 10th, 2018, 00:31
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
That's your perspective. If graphics are part of the package they are very low to me, almost negligible.

Let me give you an example. I'm playing Choice of Wizards on Android. It's strictly a text-based RPG, an interactive story. I play those a lot on tablet and enjoy them. They have RPG mechanics, inventory, choices to make - yet it's all text. To me, they are enjoyable and worth playing.

I guess it just varies from person to person. But I'm fine with Dungeons of Chaos looking stuff (just wishlisted it the other day) and I'm fine with Skyrim, or anime JRPGs, or whatever. You guys limit yourselves by not checking out those games if you're fans of RPGs. Because I'll tell you that there are plenty of JRPGs and anime-looking games that have excellent, interesting RPG mechanics. And there are games like Caves of Qud and other weird-looking ones that have amazing mechanics. And to me, that is what makes these games, visual medium or not, worth playing. Not looks.

So that's just me. Spiderweb games don't have audio, btw. At least not anything worth mentioning. Graphics are sparse. Yet to me, those games are immersive and interesting as hell because of the systems Jeff implements, the writing and so on. It's the package to me, and I value mechanics and RPG "stuff" a lot more than anything else.

I also play RPGs without major stories, but I guess I'm also weird like that (Oubliette, anyone?)
I just know my taste and which kind of games I enjoy. Like you said: it just varies from person to person. Besides it is not like we're starving for videogame entertaiment or even crpgs these days. If the game has retro level graphics, it better be darn special in some other way. The undertale for instance felt a really orginal game and those retro graphics were there for a reason. It all made perfect sense. Not my favourite type of game, but I adored the sheer cleverness of it.

As for Dungeons of Chaos, it seems to be a fairly typical older era rpg with plenty of grinding accompanied with forgettable story and world. I'm just refering to Forgottenlor's excellent review here. I value my time too much to spend hours of my precious free time on products such those. Nothing special there for me.
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February 10th, 2018, 00:58
One can downplay visuals as much as they like, but the fact is that they matter to most people.

I don't think it's usually the deciding factor, but it's definitely significant.
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February 10th, 2018, 01:39
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
One can downplay visuals as much as they like, but the fact is that they matter to most people.

I don't think it's usually the deciding factor, but it's definitely significant.
Are you telling me what's significant to me? I know it matters to most people. To me, not so much.

Now excuse me, I'm going back to my Nethack playthrough.

Originally Posted by Dez View Post
I just know my taste and which kind of games I enjoy. Like you said: it just varies from person to person. Besides it is not like we're starving for videogame entertaiment or even crpgs these days. If the game has retro level graphics, it better be darn special in some other way. The undertale for instance felt a really orginal game and those retro graphics were there for a reason. It all made perfect sense. Not my favourite type of game, but I adored the sheer cleverness of it.

As for Dungeons of Chaos, it seems to be a fairly typical older era rpg with plenty of grinding accompanied with forgettable story and world. I'm just refering to Forgottenlor's excellent review here. I value my time too much to spend hours of my precious free time on products such those. Nothing special there for me.
Cool. That's why there are lots of options for us to choose from, different tastes for different folks. I just personally do not discriminate on an RPG based on its looks. Shoot, some of my favorite times have been with kids cartoon-ish looking RPGs like Blue Dragon. Wish that one would get a PC port, actually, dang flabbit.

For me, as long as it's not Atari level, or looks like Pong: The RPG, I can play it. If it *did* look like Pong, it better have some damn good RPG mechanics!

And I would say that, I appreciate nice aesthetics and quality art design like anyone would. But it's not necessary for my enjoyment of a game. Nor is there a specific art style that I need to have to play a game and enjoy it. Your mileage may vary.

AND, I will say that in some ways I prefer retro graphics. Genuine retro graphics, like the Infinity Engine games. To my eye, I think Planescape: Torment, IWD or BG/BG2 look much better than current-gen CRPGs that are similar to them. I know technically they are outdated graphics, lower resolution, less detailed; but I just love them. And that's not nostalgia (although some like to tell me it is) because I just started playing them in the past 5-6 years.
Last edited by Fluent; February 10th, 2018 at 01:58.
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February 10th, 2018, 01:56
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Are you telling me what's significant to me? I know it matters to most people. To me, not so much. I made it clear it was my opinion from the start so not sure what your point is.
No, I'm telling you what's significant to many others.

We already know what's significant to you because you've repeated it at least a dozen times.
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February 10th, 2018, 01:58
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
No, I'm telling you what's significant to many others.

We already know what's significant to you because you've repeated it at least a dozen times.
A dozen? Shit. I have 3 more repeats to hit my 15 repeat quota then.
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February 10th, 2018, 02:11
This is one of those times where I wholeheartedly agree with Fluent. JDR13 probably has me on ignore (I generally assume I am ignored by most here for whatever reason) but all I can say whether he sees it or not is I love the graphics in Fallout 4 and I love the graphics in Avernum 3. To each their own but when it comes to Spiderweb games what you get is perfectly sufficient for what it is. What more do people want? Seriously what else would enhance a current spiderweb game? Nicer grass a la Eschalon. Do you want nicer grass but incredibly irritating slow movement? Eschalon is your game. Every game has plus and minus.
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February 10th, 2018, 03:03
Originally Posted by BrianOConnell View Post
This is one of those times where I wholeheartedly agree with Fluent. JDR13 probably has me on ignore (I generally assume I am ignored by most here for whatever reason) but all I can say whether he sees it or not is I love the graphics in Fallout 4 and I love the graphics in Avernum 3. To each their own but when it comes to Spiderweb games what you get is perfectly sufficient for what it is. What more do people want? Seriously what else would enhance a current spiderweb game? Nicer grass a la Eschalon. Do you want nicer grass but incredibly irritating slow movement? Eschalon is your game. Every game has plus and minus.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your opinion is probably in the minority, but like you said, to each their own. I'm not sure why you think anyone here is going to be negative towards you because of what you like.
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February 10th, 2018, 03:44
At least we see that JDR does not ignore you. Something good came out of it all.
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February 10th, 2018, 03:53
This discussion has gone way off course and people are making assumptions. Just to be clear - because I starting this graphical discussion - I have *NO* problem with Jeff's current graphics. Heck I like Geneforge 1 with the puke green boarders and bright grey tiles and little basic sprites. Its primitive but its not *abstract*. The little Geneforge sprites have basic animations and combat graphics. Its charming. Bouncing icons like Battle Brothers is a graphical abstraction. Its lazy even compared to a primitive sprite with the most basic animation. Its a style that in my opinion puts it beneath Geneforge 1 in many respects. I can *relate* to the primitive little lizard sprite with its pixely little legs that move when it walks and make little noises when it attacks. A bouncing head? Hell no. I'm simply arguing against Jeff REGRESSING his graphics. So if he is going to switch engines yes I'd like to see him evolve further in the graphical department otherwise why bother? Just stick with the current engine that looks great. If you are going to change it make the change worth something.
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February 10th, 2018, 05:58
Because engines aren't just about graphics? He was quoted as saying the new engine will add a ton of new features and cool stuff. So I'll just wait and see. If it is an overhead view with Space Invaders graphics, I might pass.
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